On Concealed Carry and the NRA

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Comparing the status of the First Amendment to the status of the Second Amendment is a specious argument.

Both have beent trampled, by Campaign Finance Reform (federal and local), arbitrary standards on what constitutes pornography, and other First Amendment cases.

The Second has been trampled because we haven't had a Supreme Court in a century that would rule in our favor.

And I sure wouldn't want to bring a case before the SC based upon Second Amendment grounds right now.

As so many have pointed out, the SC's decision in Roe vs. Wade was handed down in a distinctly different period: it was handed down at what may have been the zenith of the feminist movement's power; it was handed down just a few years after the release of "The Pill," and it was handed down after a generation like mine embraced the idea of sex without consequences.

Agree or disagree with any of the above-mentioned cultural shifts, but you can't deny that those shifts had an impact on the SC.

There is no major cultural shift toward a pure view of the Second Amendment. Any such view is history, something to be read about and studied by historians absorbed by pre-WWI history.

Nor is there any shift toward viewing any of the other amendments to the Constitution as "pure."

The push for shall-issue concealed carry nationwide has less to do with giving citizens the right to carry (on average, only 2% or so of state populations get permits), and more to do with making the idea of armed citizens acceptable to the rest of the populace.

This is progress. Slow, incremental progress.

Do I expect to see the full-auto restrictions from the FOPA of 1986 struck down? Not in my lifetime. But maybe in someone else's.

There are a lot of people here on THR who weren't "of age" when the fight over Evil Black Rifles began. I've been meaning to go to the archives at the city library to print out a copy of an op-ed piece from 1989. When and if I get that chance, I think a lot of people will understand the kind of pressure we faced.
 
Dick, I think those of us in WI have a slightly clearer view on this, given Corey's lil' thang, and some of the other events goin' on in the state. Just one example though...

Several years back, an amendment was made to the Wisconsin constitution protecting the right to "keep and bear arms for hunting... and any other lawful purpose". Since that time, there have been two State SC cases covering CCW. The first (Hamdan) was a shop keeper, charged with carrying a concealed weapon on his business property: the defense was very narrow (concentrating on the "on his own property" issue): the court ruled narrowly too, stating that it was lawful to carry a concealed weapon on property you own. In their ruling, they made the statement "we strongly urge the Legislature to pass some form of permit system, before similar cases come before us" (or words to that effect): the Legislature has ignored them. The second case (Fisher, iirc) was defended on broader grounds: that the state constitutional amendment protected the right to carry for "any lawful purpose", and contending that self-protection was a lawful purpose. Unfortunately, in the interim between the two cases, one justice was replaced: the ruling in the second case was that the state's need to preserve safety overrode the individual's right to carry...

Think about that, before urging that we try pushing a case before the USSC: one justice changed, and we got shafted. Future cases (if there are any) will be decided on that precident...

Thanks, but I'll take the pragmatic approach, and work through those tiny steps: they at least seem to head twords our ultimate goal...
 
Strings, exactly right.

The WI RKBA amendment refers to "lawful purposes."

Well, what's lawful? In both the Hamdan and Fisher cases, the Court made reference to the "police powers" of the state (not to be confused with the powers of a police state, although some would argue that we live within such powers already).

Hamdan's very narrowly-defined case was decided by a 4:3 conserative majority. The four votes to narrowly define his defense to carry on private property as being legal got us...nothing.

In the Fisher case, if Justice Sykes was still on the court, we would probably have had an upset of existing statute like never before.

Lots of folks here like to quote Son Zu (or is it moo goo gai pan, or another rice dish?).

At any rate, the quote is that a good general does not attack until he knows that he has won.

We're nowhere near that point.

If we press forward now with a case based on the Second Amendment, we will likely lose, if not in whole, at least in part.

And, unlike the murky Miller case, any recent SC decision will carry more weight.

Without a public outcry for a strict interpretation of the 2A, the courts will continue to hand down narrow, mealy-mouthed decisions.

We win in the legislatures. The anti's try to win in the courts.

And that, as Walter Cronkite used to say, is the way that it is.
 
While it's true that Smith's idealism makes libertarian-minded folk feel puffed up with righteous indignation -- myself included -- I don't believe his path will bring any meaningful results in the real world.

A would-be libertarian co-worker of mine told me this after reading a Smith diatribe (pick any of his essays) for the first time: "This man is an inflamed donkey aperture. No matter what he's trying to say, his message will not get through because I simply will not listen to inflamed donkey apertures."

It's a shame...Smith carries a good and true message most of the time, but the "unwashed masses" will (understandably) not tolerate his harsh delivery.
 
---------quote---------
There is no major cultural shift toward a pure view of the Second Amendment. Any such view is history, something to be read about and studied by historians absorbed by pre-WWI history.
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I think we might be starting to see the embryonic beginnings of such a shift, and the proliferation of CCW laws is a good example of it.

It is possible to view CCW laws in light of "shouldn't be necessary under a pure view of the 2nd."

But in terms of the broad cultural mindset, the idea of ordinary citizens carrying guns around for lawful self-defence is a major paradigm shift away from views such as 1) lawful use = hunting and skeet, 2) civilians don't "need" combat firearms such as handguns and assault weapons, 3) the state will protect us at all times, and 4) the 2nd ammmendment is about states maintaining National Guards.

You really have to bend over backwards to see this is a negative move. It may not be the destination, but it is definitely a move in the right direction.
 
xd9fan, what am I supposed to think? You crank off several posts about how those of us who are actively fighting for RKBA (which makes up most of this board) are not ideologically pure, and you expect us to clap for you?

I think the high horse is pretty damn crowded my friend.

Incremental has worked for our enemies for a century. What is your plan going to get us? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Jack squat. But you will be sure to be self righteous and condemn everybody who actually works for stuff.

Dick (Monkeyleg) and Jim March are two guys who have worked their butts off in their home states for gun rights. These guys have put it on the line. They have made actual PROGRESS. By L.Neil Smith's standards they are failures.

Well between L.Neil and Dick and Jim, I'll take Dick and Jim any day of the week. Because they are actually doing something instead of sitting on the Libertarian moral high ground.

I don't know how far you will go to defend your home and your farm. And in reality it is irrelevant. If we got your ammo box revolution, how tough you are doesn't mean anything unless you have a significant chunk of the population standing behind you. Which you don't.

The only way you ever will is if those of us who actually work at this stuff keep turning the tide of public perception. Whether you like it or not.

Libertarian moral absolutism is great. It allows you to not do any actual work but you can still fell smug about yourself.
 
Every man, woman, and responsible child has an unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.

Really? What about RPGsm bazookas and SAMs?
 
nd you expect us to clap for you?

I think its time for you to take that dulcolax supp. Did I ask for a clap did I say Tory....I think not. So chill out and re-read my posts, instead of going half-cocked.

Libertarian moral absolutism is great. It allows you to not do any actual work but you can still fell smug about yourself.

Again you have no idea of the work that I do. yet you make statements like these. Stop thumpping your chest already.

Incremental has worked for our enemies for a century. What is your plan going to get us? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Jack squat. But you will be sure to be self righteous and condemn everybody who actually works for stuff.

YOU are coming off very self-righteous.....and have I EVER condemned anybody on the work that has been done? No, so knock it the hell off with your implied remarks!!!

Incrementalism has worked for our enemies for a century. YES I AGREE. that is only because our side is too willing to compromise (where by to let this little steps of "common sense" take place) My serious question is at what point does the back and forth incremental compromises stop? Because there is a disconnect within every FF's statement on the topic of guns AND the current thinking of todays americans....even gun owners. and my prior posts mention the fact that I am unhappy with most american voters that dont think the Bill of Rights mean what they say.

My plan is not to keep voting for the same people that do not get the results I want. Or to keep voting for them because of the "lesser of two evils crap" or out of fear for the other party crap. This current GOP has blown the last 6 years over another country and have done little if any to protect my Rights OR to even start knocking off the laws of yesteryear that still violate them.
Do what you will, and thank you for it.
But for me I can longer tolerate this current mixture in the GOP. They are way off thier principles of the past. I cant reward this past behavior will other vote...so I will continue to supply the pro-gun movements in other ways with money and time like always.

(I think being a Benefactor member of my NRA, I can still get pi$$ed with them when they flood thier magazines with Govt-blessed symbolic victories)
 
xd9: I think Larry is cueing off something that has been happening here in WI: we have someone claiming to be a "Libertarian 2A absolutist" who has been throwing shots at Dick (directly) and the rest of us (indirectly) for awhile now, and it's starting to REALLY chap our hides. So, when we read something that shows a similar attitude, we (and those out of state who are rooting for us) tend to get a bit touchy...
 
I'm very touchy about this subject. I've been condemned by Libertarian absolutists too many times and I'm tired of them.

xd9fan, I apologize for my remarks. I'm sorry. I did not intend to go off half cocked on you.

I don' t even know you, and I'm lumping you in with people that I've dealt with in local politics. That isn't right or fair. I think the connection is that that started up with them being inspired by L. Neil Smith.
 
xd9fan, just to defend the Bush administration on a couple of points: the sunset of the AW ban, and the Lawful Protection of Firearms in Commerce act.

Remember, too, that it is congress, not the president, that drafts laws.

Having said that, I completely agree with you that the Republicans have strayed--if not completely run away from--the Constitution.

I'm fortunate to be represented by a congressman who's actually a real conservative and constitutionalist. It's sad that not everyone can make that claim.
 
That’s funny. You just commended and discredited the G. W. Bush administration on the same grounds in the same post. Keep up the good work, but don’t fool yourself.

~G. Fink
 
Gordon: on the one hand, the Republicrats ARE the best choice for gunnies wanting to slow the slide. The unfortunate part is, instead of being "pro gun", they're "pro status quo"... meaning "we won't screw your civil right to arms any more than it is currently". Of course, if the antis take control and pass more restrictions, then THAT becomes the status quo...
 
Gordon, there's nothing inconsistent with commending the administration for a couple of good things but complaining about other aspects.

I'm not a Bush cheerleader, but when credit is due, give it.
 
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