On the hunt for an American SxS

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I own 9 Remington SxSs, 3 of them have steel barrels, the other 6 Damascus. Dates from 1873 to 1894. Also a Lefever and 3 Parkers. Parts ? There are many people who have parts, one of the reasons I buy American made guns. Ithaca and Remington both have very simple, actions with fewer parts -the Anson and Deeley. It's been around since the 1800s and is a proven action. The price of good doubles have gone up. Use to be able to get one for 20 bucks [ in the 60s ] and now those same guns go for hundreds of dollars.

You reload then any of the old guns can be shot, Damascus or steel. I like to keep pressures under 8500psi out of respect for 100+ year old wood. The barrels ain't gonna let go. I've been putting on a SxS Shoot since 2005 and many a Damascus barrel double is shot with nitro loads. Out of the 70 or so guys who show up probably 30 are shooting Damascus. Never been a problem. Sherman Bell had a bunch of articles about the strength of Damascus barrels. A fellow gave him 20 Damascus SxS " wall hangers " with instructions to try and blow them up. Loose barrels, loose on the action, pitted, you name it, they had it. All took Remington proof loads of 18,500psi with no problems. He then took a Parker and started reloading high pressure shells. Tom Armburst had a pressure tester and they got to 30,000 psi before one of the barrels ripped. That's not to say all Damascus barrels guns are safe to shoot but to say they ain't all junk either. Bell did the same test with Remington proof loads latter with another 20 cheap Belgium imports with twist Damascus barrels, not the pattern welded ones. He quit after they held at 18,500psi. So Mn Fats, don't get your shirt in a knot because a gun has Damascus barrels. ;)
 
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bangswitch said:
View attachment 1010601 My first side-by-side was a 20 gauge Savage Fox Model B, I won it off a punch board at work one night when I worked for DOC back in the early 1980's I kept it a long time, and sold it to a guy I worked with around 2005. I always regretted selling it. I bought a Savage/Stevens 311 at a pawn shop a couple years later, kept it a year or so, then traded it for a Savage Fox Model B 12 gauge. Now I have three Fox B's, a 20 gauge made in 1950, a 16 gauge made in 1966, and a 12 gauge from 1972. I shoot the 20 and 16 every now and then, but until a year ago, the 12 gauge was my skeet and clays gun. I bought a CZ Hammer Classic 12 gauge and use it mostly now, but still like the 12 ga. Fox B. It's a bit of a challenge shooting skeet with modified and full chokes, but when you get a good hit, it's just a puff of smoke.

They're solid guns, nothing too fancy, but I think they shoot pretty well. Parts are hard to come by, though. I had to replace a firing pin on the 20 gauge and a hammer on the 16. The right barrel parts wear out faster than the left, Numrich has had what I needed, but it's getting harder, which is why I don't shoot the 20 much. I've put as many as 200 rounds through the 12 gauge in a single day of shooting sporting clays and 5-stand, it's still very tight.
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Very cool. Nice looking guns, thanks for the story and pics!
 
paul harm said:
I own 9 Remington SxSs, 3 of them have steel barrels, the other 6 Damascus. Dates from 1873 to 1894. Also a Lefever and 3 Parkers. Parts ? There are many people who have parts, one of the reasons I buy American made guns. Ithaca and Remington both have very simple, actions with fewer parts -the Anson and Deeley. It's been around since the 1800s and is a proven action. The price of good doubles have gone up. Use to be able to get one for 20 bucks [ in the 60s ] and now those same guns go for hundreds of dollars.

You reload then any of the old guns can be shot, Damascus or steel. I like to keep pressures under 8500psi out of respect for 100+ year old wood. The barrels ain't gonna let go. I've been putting on a SxS Shoot since 2005 and many a Damascus barrel double is shot with nitro loads. Out of the 70 or so guys who show up probably 30 are shooting Damascus. Never been a problem. Sherman Bell had a bunch of articles about the strength of Damascus barrels. A fellow gave him 20 Damascus SxS " wall hangers " with instructions to try and blow them up. Loose barrels, loose on the action, pitted, you name it, they had it. All took Remington proof loads of 18,500psi with no problems. He then took a Parker and started reloading high pressure shells. Tom Armburst had a pressure tester and they got to 30,000 psi before one of the barrels ripped. That's not to say all Damascus barrels guns are safe to shoot but to say they ain't all junk either. Bell did the same test with Remington proof loads latter with another 20 cheap Belgium imports with twist Damascus barrels, not the pattern welded ones. He quit after they held at 18,500psi. So Mn Fats, don't get your shirt in a knot because a gun has Damascus barrels. ;)
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Now that is interesting. Btw, that's awesome you put on a SxS shoot. I'd love to go. Just need the side by side first haha. I'm not sure my Baikal coach gun would be to good for competition haha.
 
Mn Fats, I would encourage you to give the Fox Model B a try (NOT the B-SE single trigger version; I'd stay away from those). I have a few shotguns, all of them would cost a good bit more than my Fox Model B 20 gauge, but I like that Model B a lot. It just suits and I also shoot it very well. I don't know if a 12 gauge would be too big of a gun to make me as happy as the 20 does though. I've been wanting an Ithaca NID but have never snagged one. My BIL bought a very nice NID for $25(!) at a yard sale about 3 years ago (functionally it was very nice, but it had some patina to it, which I actually like). Every time I think about SxS shotguns my envy for his good fortune surfaces again. :)
 
I6turbo said:
Mn Fats, I would encourage you to give the Fox Model B a try (NOT the B-SE single trigger version; I'd stay away from those). I have a few shotguns, all of them would cost a good bit more than my Fox Model B 20 gauge, but I like that Model B a lot. It just suits and I also shoot it very well. I don't know if a 12 gauge would be too big of a gun to make me as happy as the 20 does though. I've been wanting an Ithaca NID but have never snagged one. My BIL bought a very nice NID for $25(!) at a yard sale about 3 years ago (functionally it was very nice, but it had some patina to it, which I actually like). Every time I think about SxS shotguns my envy for his good fortune surfaces again. :)
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I had the 20 gauge BSE - worked great although the inside springs were a tad dainty; better wood, real checkering, etc.. For me, though it was too heavy and bulky to take afield. I prefer a more svelte SxS with a splinter forearm and a weight about 6#.
 
Me, too. I had an NID lined up, and it was sold before I could come up with the $$. But the guy who had sold the NID had a Sauer 16 ga. SxS also, so I bought that. It is a joy to carry, but I wouldn't want to shoot a lot of Trap or Sporting Clays with it. Just under 6#, splinter forend, and enough patina so I won't feel like I have to leave it behind and take the Model 12 when it's wet out.

Sauer.jpg
 
I6turbo said:
Mn Fats, I would encourage you to give the Fox Model B a try (NOT the B-SE single trigger version; I'd stay away from those). I have a few shotguns, all of them would cost a good bit more than my Fox Model B 20 gauge, but I like that Model B a lot. It just suits and I also shoot it very well. I don't know if a 12 gauge would be too big of a gun to make me as happy as the 20 does though. I've been wanting an Ithaca NID but have never snagged one. My BIL bought a very nice NID for $25(!) at a yard sale about 3 years ago (functionally it was very nice, but it had some patina to it, which I actually like). Every time I think about SxS shotguns my envy for his good fortune surfaces again. :)
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Funny, I have recently (yesterday) got one lined up for me from an estate sale. I was told I'm "penciled in" at the top of the list for that specific firearm. But that could go either way. Maybe a relative decides they want it, which is ok by me. But man, I'd really appreciate that gun. Resized_Resized_20201220_152934_62807916070608.jpeg Two gold triggers. I wonder what Savage/ Fox Model B that would be called.
 
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I6turbo said:
Mn Fats, I would encourage you to give the Fox Model B a try (NOT the B-SE single trigger version; I'd stay away from those).
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Agreed. To me, a proper side-by-side has two triggers; gives you the immediate option of barrel choice depending on the shot you need or want. These guns are fixed chokes, no screw-ins available, and most are choked right/mod, left/full. The right barrel gets used a good bit more, because of the wider pattern. You quickly get used to shifting your trigger finger. I formed a habit of setting my finger on the trigger guard just below the front (right barrel) trigger, which allows me to slip it back to the rear very quickly.
 
i will not buy a double barrel with out this type of lock up, this browning double is over 50 years old and has served 3 generations, while firing thousands of factory-reloaded shells and is at tight today as it was when new. the single top lever lock up types are not for me.
 

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bangswitch said:
Agreed. To me, a proper side-by-side has two triggers; gives you the immediate option of barrel choice depending on the shot you need or want. These guns are fixed chokes, no screw-ins available, and most are choked right/mod, left/full. The right barrel gets used a good bit more, because of the wider pattern. You quickly get used to shifting your trigger finger. I formed a habit of setting my finger on the trigger guard just below the front (right barrel) trigger, which allows me to slip it back to the rear very quickly.
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Half were also chokes IC/M for those who used a god dog..................;):D
 
eastbank said:
i will not buy a double barrel with out this type of lock up, this browning double is over 50 years old and has served 3 generations, while firing thousands of factory-reloaded shells and is at tight today as it was when new. the single top lever lock up types are not for me.
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Greener action.jpg

Nothing wrong with adding a little insurance on top of those chopper lumps.......
 
the best of two worlds, i have a older spanish double barrel 410 with the same lock up as the browning
 

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I bought a Remington 1894, 12 gage, thirty years ago at a gun show for $225. It had a cut off stock with no butt plate. Two barrels one Damascus one REM steel. Serial numbers match, Grade “B”. I load and shoot Black Powder shells in it but the fluid steel is proof tested for nitro as is the Damascus. Circa 1904 ,I believe.

Anyway, was going to suggest it, until I checked Gun Broker. Holy Hanna I had no idea they were worth that sort of money. :what:
 
Mn Fats said:
Well screw it. I guess I'll just get this one.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/903890607
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That's sort of the German version of a Holland and Holland. Too rich for my blood, and I'd be afraid to take it out of the safe.

The Anson and Deeley action that Stevens (now Savage) uses is a very simple one, and the lockup depends on the tang between the barrels more than it does a double lug as shown above. The 20 gauge Fox B I have has been used a bunch before I got it, and had a few issues I had to fix. The stock was split just behind the action, not an uncommon thing with a box lock shotgun, as all the recoil force is placed against the mating area, instead of spread into the center part between the locks on a side lock. If the action screw works loose (the long threaded rod that attaches the action to the stock), it accelerates the wear and damage. It's easy to see the difference in construction and how it is maybe not as durable in the long term as the higher-end guns, but these guns seem to last a long time with little or no maintenance.

Here's a couple of pictures made when I had the 20 gauge disassembled when I was repairing the stock and replacing the firing pins.
DSC08106.JPG DSC08112.JPG DSC08130.JPG DSC08134.JPG DSC08141.JPG DSC08143.JPG
 
entropy said:
But it's not an American SxS. :p
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Well I'm German-American. There's something there that makes it ok. Haha. But price wise, not ok for me. Now if everyone here can just pitch in a couple thousand, you can help support a fellow firearm enthusiast that lacks a decent SxS. Call blah blah blah and make your donation today.
bangswitch said:
That's sort of the German version of a Holland and Holland. Too rich for my blood, and I'd be afraid to take it out of the safe.

The Anson and Deeley action that Stevens (now Savage) uses is a very simple one, and the lockup depends on the tang between the barrels more than it does a double lug as shown above. The 20 gauge Fox B I have has been used a bunch before I got it, and had a few issues I had to fix. The stock was split just behind the action, not an uncommon thing with a box lock shotgun, as all the recoil force is placed against the mating area, instead of spread into the center part between the locks on a side lock. If the action screw works loose (the long threaded rod that attaches the action to the stock), it accelerates the wear and damage. It's easy to see the difference in construction and how it is maybe not as durable in the long term as the higher-end guns, but these guns seem to last a long time with little or no maintenance.

Here's a couple of pictures made when I had the 20 gauge disassembled when I was repairing the stock and replacing the firing pins.
View attachment 1011172 View attachment 1011173 View attachment 1011174 View attachment 1011175 View attachment 1011176 View attachment 1011177
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Very interesting. Thanks for the post and pictures!
 
W H Baker was a firearms designer who teamed up with L C Smith several times to start gun companies. Baker supplied patents and Smith supplied capital. I believe some of their companies were Syracuse Gun and Forge, Ithaca Gun, L C Smith and at least one other I have forgotten. Baker also founded Baker Gun and Forge in Batavia New York. He produced a variety of hammer guns and sidelock hammerless guns. The company sold out to Folsom and or Cresent in 1917.

Kevin
 
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