On this day, July 1, 1916.....

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I'm rather surprised to read that piece printed in the Guardian. It appears to be richer in fact and poorer in hyperbole than their usual fare. Is Hastings a regular contributor or was that a guest column?

Absolutely incredible, I hope that the world never witnesses something like this ever again. But then, it will won't it? Not always military against military, but it is human nature.Take the Rwandan genocide of 1994 for example

It's happening in N. Korea right now, albiet starvation at the hands of the government killing far more than the concentration camps are.
 
To think that the entire course of world history was changed by some nobody with a Browning pistol. The assasination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife caused WW1, the Russian revolution, WW2, the cold war, the Chinese revolution, and even our current problems in Iran and the middle east. (Had there never been a cold war, the Ayatollahs would have never come to power. The middle east would possibly have been in better shape because the power vacuum from WW2 would have made it more difficult for power grabbers to succeed.)

The only other events like it where the assasination of Abraham Lincoln and William McKinley, but even these events have only a fraction of the impact that the assasination of Franz Ferdinand had. Ironically, Ferdinand was sympathetic to the Bosnians desire to be independent. It would have been in Bosnias best interest for Ferdinand to come to power. The same was true with Lincon. He wanted to mend the country and was pursuing reconstruction plans that where very favorable to the south. It was in the best interest of all sotherners that Lincon remain in power.
 
I agree; Franz Ferdinand was universally seen as a cretin, but his death was enough to blow up the powder-keg that Europe had been sitting on since the last war.

Ironically had Britain done in 1914 as it had in 1870/1, the war would have been over by Christmas, WW2 would not have happened and the British Empire would probably still be in existence.
 
I'll bite -

ronically had Britain done in 1914 as it had in 1870/1, the war would have been over by Christmas, WW2 would not have happened and the British Empire would probably still be in existence.

So what did Britain do "in 1870/1" in France that it should have done in 1914? :confused:

If you are referring to the Franco-Prussian War, you are seriously confused.
 
I think Ag is saying that if Britain had stayed out of the war, as she did in 1870/71, the war would have been over by Christmas, and things would have been very different. Can't argue that they would have been different: but the prospect of a largely German Europe over the next few decades, under the Kaiser, is pretty scary! I don't know that he would have stopped at France in the West, and victory there would have freed him up to take huge chunks out of Russia, the Balkans, etc. Not a nice thought . . .
 
Ironically had Britain done in 1914 as it had in 1870/1, the war would have been over by Christmas, WW2 would not have happened and the British Empire would probably still be in existence.

I'm not a huge fan of current British politics, but I do think the British 'Empire' is given a rather poor showing by pop culture revisionism. I put it right up there with
a)Jewish (respect of humanity as a greater organism than mere biology)
b)Greek (equality of mankind)
c)Egyptian (physical structure)
d)Roman (rule of law)
e)Chinese (structure of higher math)


Cultures/Empires as appropriate in terms of contribution to civilization of mankind. In fact I'd kind of consider it a continuation of the Roman rule of law theme, with a healthy injection of Norman egalitarianism to leaven it for the masses. (F was the French, laugh all you want, but we Americans have a lot to thank those dirty, unwashed French philospoher types for).
 
Preacherman,

I dont think it would have gone like that - after all, it didnt in 1870/1, and we are possibly reading too much from what happened in 1940 into what could have happened in 1914 (the same applies to the Russian comments).

Stand,

Its heartening to hear you say that.

Over here, since the 1960's the Empire has been almost universally condemned (with one or two more realistic appraisals occasionally, such as Zulu), but in the last few years books have appeared recognizing the good and bad parts of the whole thing - like Niall Ferguson's Empire, and a whole slew of excellent books on the Royal Navy.

Obviously I am biased, but to my mind there have been few, if any at all, Empires which have given more benefit to the rest of the world than we did.
 
Reality check

I dont think it would have gone like that - after all, it didnt in 1870/1, and we are possibly reading too much from what happened in 1940 into what could have happened in 1914 (the same applies to the Russian comments).

WHAT would not "have gone on like that" and in what way was Britain involved in the still -unidentified "that?" :scrutiny:

Obviously I am biased, but to my mind there have been few, if any at all, Empires which have given more benefit to the rest of the world than we did.

Really? Do you know ANYTHING about the Roman Empire, including the fact that the roads, bridges and aqueducts it built are STILL in use? :rolleyes:
 
Preach, I think it's likely that without the Versailles Treaty from WW I, there would have not been a Hitler. Economic issues coupled with a "Southern pride" sort of nationalism brought him to power.

As for the British Empire, it's well codified that the material level of well-being and the literacy rate declined in India after the end of the British Raj. Certainly the former protectorates in Africa and the Middle East don't seem better off...

By and large, for all empires, there comes a time when there is an economic net loss from their colonies. In today's world, the highest factor of cost is that of projecting power in an age of AK47s and RPGs, not to mention IEDs and cell phones.

Art
 
Tory,

Read Art Eatman's post #31.

As for roads and whatnot still being in use, I hardly think that equals international trade, the end of slavery as an institution, organized team sports, railways, steam power, the industrial revolution, and quite a few more (including of course the US itself).
 
Really? Do you know ANYTHING about the Roman Empire, including the fact that the roads, bridges and aqueducts it built are STILL in use?

Consider Tory, the % of the earths population that lives under British common law or derivatives thereof. The United States (and other nations now, how much influence did we have on post ww2 political systems in Japan, Germany, the Phillipines, Taiwan, Israel?) wouldn't have come into being as a classless (in theory) society without a mercantilism that was unique to the British empire of the 17th and 18th centuries.

p.s., your username is ironic in this particular instance :D

p.p.s., wow double irony, Agricola's is too.
 
Mercantilism arose with the changes in England due to a transfer of wealth from the nobility to the emerging middle class and the entrepreneurs. Money talks, which led to the ensuing egalitarianism in English law. At the same time, entrepreneurial mercantilism led to exploration and the controls over colonies were enabled by the relatively low-cost ability to have superior military power over the indigines. Thus the British Empire. (How's that for a quick and dirty run-down?)

You control that much of the world for that long, some of your ideas rub off and last after you've up and gone home from the party. You have the same after-effects from other empires; the British Empire was more broadspread, and but for Russia, more recent.

The U.S. Empire has never been based on ownership/possession/rule, but on trade relations. "Gotta do bidness, and you do bidness with whoever runs the show."

Unfortunately, we have a propensity of Doing Good, which extends to pulling other folks' irons from some fire they shouldn't have been in, in the first place...

:), Art
 
The assassination of Franz Ferdinand is better viewed as the excuse for WWI rather than the cause of WWI. If the foreign policies of the era are examined, the opposing alliances were well armed powder-kegs looking for a reason to explode. If the archduke had not been assassinated, some other casus belli would have been found.

Tory, the only thing I know that Britain could have done in 1914 that was done in 1870/71 would have been to remain neutral at the start of WWI as Britain remained neutral during the Franco-Prussian War. Fits in with my knowledge of history, at least. Really, the wrong cusp though. Britain was bound by treaty in 1914. If neutrality was considered to be an option, no alliance should have been entered into.

Same as with the question: Should the US have sent combat troops to Vietnam? Wrong question. The question should be: Should the US have obligated itself by treaty to send combat troops to Vietnam? Once the treaty is agreed upon...the answer is 'yes.'
 
Consolidating certain points

We are told that:

Cultures/Empires as appropriate in terms of contribution to civilization of mankind. In fact I'd kind of consider it a continuation of the Roman rule of law theme, with a healthy injection of Norman egalitarianism to leaven it for the masses.

In which case, thank Rome, which ruled Britain as far North as Hadrian's Wall, built a number of its major cities and roads, as well as providing the aforementioned "Roman rule of law theme" from which English common law partly springs.

As for roads and whatnot still being in use, I hardly think that equals international trade, the end of slavery as an institution, organized team sports, railways, steam power, the industrial revolution, and quite a few more (including of course the US itself).

Infrastructure helped make trade and industrialization possible. Note that the Britain SPREAD slavery to its colonies in the New World, the US and the Caribbean islands particularly. Where do you think the rum for the Royal Navy came from?

The steam engine was developed by a Scottish engineer, Watt, based upon earlier work by, IIRC, Newcomb. For that matter, a Greek developed a sort of steam dynamo; a vessel with two spouts that acted as jets when the steam escaped. Hardly the product of empire and mercantilism, although the steam engine certainly provided the power for the industrial revolution that supported each. Railways are merely an application of said steam power for the purpose of trade through transportation.

Want to argue trade? Rome ruled the "known world" - i.e., the Western world - from Egypt to England, for centuries. It turned the Mediterranean and Agean into "Roman lakes," which its ships plied ceaselessly carrying trade goods to all points to and from the empire. Its laws and customs went with them.

"Organized sports?!" Are you serious? If you truly tout drunken soccer louts as an Engine of Civilization, there is no point in discussing this issue. :scrutiny:

Consider Tory, the % of the earths population that lives under British common law or derivatives thereof. The United States (and other nations now, how much influence did we have on post ww2 political systems in Japan, Germany, the Phillipines, Taiwan, Israel?) wouldn't have come into being as a classless (in theory) society without a mercantilism that was unique to the British empire of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Reality check time. There is NOTHING "classless" about British society; not now and certainly not then. Note that Italian, French, Spanish and Portuguese - all the "Romance Languages" - derive from Latin, which is still the language of Western medicine and law for terms of anatomy and practice.

British influence "on post ww2 [sic] political systems" in marked by its absence or, more accurately, vacuum. It was American troops, American supplies and American dollars that rebuilt Germany and Japan; not British anything. It was American Liberty and Victory ships bringing supplies to the entire Pacific Rim which created "cargo cults."

Britain's influence on the Phillipines was: NONE. The US took them over from Spain.

Who opened Japan to the West? Commodore Perry and the US Navy; not Britain.

Israel was created DESPITE Britain; the US recognized Israel before Britain, which tried desperately to keep control of Palestine - and failed. As they did in India, so abjectly that it splintered into two separate nations only 3 years after WW II ended, after Britain unleashed tanks and troops on its citizens for holding peaceful rallies and after imprisoning Mahatma Gandhi.

The rest of the British empire started falling away soon after; twenty years after the loss of India, "The Jewel in the Crown," its colonies in Africa were independent. Even British Honduras is gone; it is now Belize.

Taiwan still exists because the US supported Chang Kai-Shek; the British were irrelevant. They were kicked out of the entire Pacific Rim by the Japanese, who captured Singapore because the Brits left its back door undefended and sent naval vessels too late and without any air cover.

Lecture us about Britain as the premiere empire when you actually KNOW something about world history. :scrutiny:
 
What fascinates me about the Somme was the use of enormous mines to open a hole up, and the total failure to exploit the resulting gap. It mirrors the use of a massive mine during the seige of Petersburg in 1864, and the Federal's total failure to exploit the resulting gap. The problems of WWI were not new at all. The slaughter was increased, but the basic tactical shortcomings of using massed troops to advance against entrenched men with rifles was well established in many dozens of slaughters on our own shores. But memories fade and vets die. And the same mistakes arrogant generals made in the 1860's were made again in the 1910's.

mine.jpg
 
Tory,

I think you should keep your insults to yourself. To rebut:

In which case, thank Rome, which ruled Britain as far North as Hadrian's Wall, built a number of its major cities and roads, as well as providing the aforementioned "Roman rule of law theme" from which English common law partly springs.

Roman law is quite different from common law. Admittedly, there are parts of the Roman legal system which survive to this day, but only a very few. Common Law owes far more to medieval ideals than Roman.

Also, Rome ruled beyond Hadrians Wall in several periods - during and immediately after the campaigns of Agricola; during the reign of Antoninus Pius (hence the so-called Antonine Wall, further North and much better sited than Hadrian's Wall), and at the end of the reign of Septimius Severus.

Infrastructure helped make trade and industrialization possible. Note that the Britain SPREAD slavery to its colonies in the New World, the US and the Caribbean islands particularly. Where do you think the rum for the Royal Navy came from?

Britain didnt spread slavery to the New World, the Spanish did - in the aftermath of the arrival of "European" diseases in the wake of the Conquest, the initial native workforce died off and the Spanish began to import African slaves into what was - at that time - a market they kept to themselves.

It was only with the realisation of the potential for smuggling various cargoes (including slaves), as well as piracy, that English (and other nations, including the French and Dutch) merchants began to run into the Carribean, and it wasnt until not being until 1655 and the conquest of Jamaica that the British had a suitable economic base in the Carribean (and the Rum Ration didnt become official until the mid-18th Century).

In addition, slavery existed in almost every society contempoary to and preceeding that period (especially the Romans - or do you not know about latifundia?). What is important is that it was the British Empire that not only ended it within its own borders, but took huge strides in pretty much ending it worldwide, thanks to the Royal Navy. Greatness isnt only in ones deeds, but also in correcting one's mistakes.

Want to argue trade? Rome ruled the "known world" - i.e., the Western world - from Egypt to England, for centuries. It turned the Mediterranean and Agean into "Roman lakes," which its ships plied ceaselessly carrying trade goods to all points to and from the empire. Its laws and customs went with them.

Thanks to the Royal Navy (as well as explorers of all nations), the "known world" as a term died out - we know all of the world, and I hardly think comparing safe trade in one sea with safe trade in all the oceans of the world is a comparison anyone can make with any kind of validity.

"Organized sports?!" Are you serious? If you truly tout drunken soccer louts as an Engine of Civilization, there is no point in discussing this issue.

One wonders about your intelligence here. It may have escaped your notice, but during the past month several billion people, from all nations of the earth, have been watching 32 national teams play a British game in Germany, and they have been watching similar competitions for every four years, to say nothing of regional tournaments, the club tournaments, national leagues, pub leagues, and people having kick arounds across the entire world. There are only a very few people alive who do not know something about football.

Even when we (for a moment) return to the grisly topic of the First World War, it is illuminated by the famous Christmas Truce of 1914, at which men of both sides stopped fighting to play football, as well as pray together, sing and bury the dead - proving for all time that they were considerably better men than their commanders, who opposed the truce.

The same of course applies, albeit on progressively lesser terms, to both codes of Rugby, Cricket, Tennis and Golf, all of which stem from these islands, and all of which bind people from various parts of the world together to talk, and play, sports.

Reality check time. There is NOTHING "classless" about British society; not now and certainly not then. Note that Italian, French, Spanish and Portuguese - all the "Romance Languages" - derive from Latin, which is still the language of Western medicine and law for terms of anatomy and practice.

British society is as classless as American society is, except at the very top. As for languages, its true that Latin has split into various branches, but English remains the language that most people seek to learn at least a few words in - thanks to our Empire, and now yours, people seek to learn it.

British influence "on post ww2 [sic] political systems" in marked by its absence or, more accurately, vacuum. It was American troops, American supplies and American dollars that rebuilt Germany and Japan; not British anything. It was American Liberty and Victory ships bringing supplies to the entire Pacific Rim which created "cargo cults."

Perhaps its because we had just spent six years, billions of pounds and large numbers of our young men's lives preventing one of the most truly evil regimes ever to come to power from conquering a large portion of the world (a war which, for two years, the US stayed out of - and the main part of its territory was of course never seriously attacked).

Who opened Japan to the West? Commodore Perry and the US Navy; not Britain.

Actually it was the Portugese, Spanish, English and Dutch who first opened up Japan in the nanban period. Once their civil wars were over, they then closed themselves up again (apart from the Dutch, who continued limited trade for the next two hundred years).

Israel was created DESPITE Britain; the US recognized Israel before Britain, which tried desperately to keep control of Palestine - and failed. As they did in India, so abjectly that it splintered into two separate nations only 3 years after WW II ended, after Britain unleashed tanks and troops on its citizens for holding peaceful rallies and after imprisoning Mahatma Gandhi.

Because, of course, Israel is a shining example of how to stablize a region. :rolleyes:

As for India, of course we did some regretful things (but then, of course, so has your nation), but your account is deeply flawed. The Indians were told in 1944 that, at the end of the war, progress would be made in their demands for independence - which is, of course, what happened (in 1947, which again makes a nonsense of your "three years after WW2 ended" comment). Ghandi was imprisoned because of his stance at the time - with the Japanese advancing through Burma and approaching India Ghandi and part of the Congress Party, a policy of utter nonviolence (as he espoused) would have met with disaster. Some quotes:

"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."(Non-Violence in Peace and War)

And about the Holocaust, which he said in 1946:

"The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs."

Of course, the Japanese at the time were delightful fellows who welcomed non-Japanese with open arms.

The rest of the British empire started falling away soon after; twenty years after the loss of India, "The Jewel in the Crown," its colonies in Africa were independent. Even British Honduras is gone; it is now Belize.

As mentioned above, its because we bankrupted ourselves saving the rest of the world. Those countries asked, and were given, their independence.

Lecture us about Britain as the premiere empire when you actually KNOW something about world history.

Thats good advice, perhaps you should follow it?
 
Please explain how we're OFF it.

I reckon that's enough of history lessons? Back to the topic...
.

The topic WAS and IS "history lessons;" specifically, the Battle of the Somme. How are we NOT on that general topic? :scrutiny:

And while I'm here, I might as well continue the current history discussion:

Roman law is quite different from common law. Admittedly, there are parts of the Roman legal system which survive to this day, but only a very few. Common Law owes far more to medieval ideals than Roman.

Really? Then please explain all the LATIN terms in English common law; i.e., pro se, quantum meruit, quantum valebant, res ipsa loquitor, usque infernum ad coelumetc.

Also, Rome ruled beyond Hadrians Wall in several periods

Which confirms what I said; that the Roman Empire stretched from Egypt to England. What part of that did you miss?

Britain didnt spread slavery to the New World, the Spanish did - in the aftermath of the arrival of "European" diseases in the wake of the Conquest, the initial native workforce died off and the Spanish began to import African slaves into what was - at that time - a market they kept to themselves.

Nonsense. Spain got little farther North on the American coast than Florida; Georgia (Savannah), South Carolina (Charleston) and Virginia (Roanoke) were all BRITISH colonies. Each used slaves to grow rice, indigo, cotton and tobacco for export to Britain - that "mercantile system" you were on about.

It was only with the realisation of the potential for smuggling various cargoes (including slaves), as well as piracy, that English (and other nations, including the French and Dutch) merchants began to run into the Carribean, and it wasnt until not being until 1655 and the conquest of Jamaica that the British had a suitable economic base in the Carribean (and the Rum Ration didnt become official until the mid-18th Century).

There was no need for the "smuggling" of slaves, as the practice was widespread and legal in 1655. Note further that Jamestown was 1604; a half-century before your magic date.

In addition, slavery existed in almost every society contempoary to and preceeding that period (especially the Romans - or do you not know about latifundia?). What is important is that it was the British Empire that not only ended it within its own borders, but took huge strides in pretty much ending it worldwide, thanks to the Royal Navy. Greatness isnt only in ones deeds, but also in correcting one's mistakes.

No argument there, so why misstate the facts?

Thanks to the Royal Navy (as well as explorers of all nations), the "known world" as a term died out - we know all of the world, and I hardly think comparing safe trade in one sea with safe trade in all the oceans of the world is a comparison anyone can make with any kind of validity.

A most disingenous argument, as the Romans ruled TWO seas, the Agean and the Mediterranean, and did so against hostile fleets at a time when the "Royal Navy" consisted of bundled rushes manned by people living in mud huts along the Thames.

One wonders about your intelligence here. .... There are only a very few people alive who do not know something about football.

Even when we (for a moment) return to the grisly topic of the First World War, it is illuminated by the famous Christmas Truce of 1914, at which men of both sides stopped fighting to play football, as well as pray together, sing and bury the dead - proving for all time that they were considerably better men than their commanders, who opposed the truce.

Most people have heard of baseball also, thanks to our troops being deployed in two world wars and a host of lesser conflicts. That does not make it a Cultural Contribution on the order of indoor plumbing, hydraulic cement, aqueducts and paved roads, all of which were Roman contributions to Europe and the Middle East.

As for the famous Christmas Truce, the important issue is that there WAS a truce and its basis was the common religions of the belligerants, as well as the need to bury the dead. If you are seriously asserting that some lads striking up a game of intermural soccer (football) was anything more than a fringe benefit of the more substantive reasons for that truce, you've got a serious hurdle in logic to clear.

As for languages, its true that Latin has split into various branches, but English remains the language that most people seek to learn at least a few words in - thanks to our Empire, and now yours, people seek to learn it.

A very recent occurrence. It was not until the turn of the last century that French - a latin derivative - ceased to be the language of diplomacy.

Perhaps its because we had just spent six years, billions of pounds and large numbers of our young men's lives preventing one of the most truly evil regimes ever to come to power from conquering a large portion of the world (a war which, for two years, the US stayed out of - and the main part of its territory was of course never seriously attacked).

We do not differ on WHY the British Empire ended, or even the myopia which kept the US out of WW II for so long. The issue is that the British Empire DID end and far sooner than its Roman predecessor.

Actually it was the Portugese, Spanish, English and Dutch who first opened up Japan in the nanban period. Once their civil wars were over, they then closed themselves up again (apart from the Dutch, who continued limited trade for the next two hundred years).

Which is to say that the US opened modern Japan, as opposed to the, by comparison, collection of shogunates with which various European powers had trade with quite some time before.

As for India, of course we did some regretful things (but then, of course, so has your nation), but your account is deeply flawed. The Indians were told in 1944 that, at the end of the war, progress would be made in their demands for independence - which is, of course, what happened (in 1947, which again makes a nonsense of your "three years after WW2 ended" comment). Ghandi was imprisoned because of his stance at the time - with the Japanese advancing through Burma and approaching India Ghandi and part of the Congress Party, a policy of utter nonviolence (as he espoused) would have met with disaster.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of "deeply flawed," note how your rationalization wholly ignores when Gandhi was FIRST imprisoned - 1930; a decade before the Japanese became the issue in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Satyagraha

The Salt Satyagraha, also known as the Salt March to Dandi, was an act of protest against the British salt tax in Colonial India. Mahatma Gandhi walked from Sabarmati Ashram to Dandi, Gujarat to get himself some salt, and hordes of Indians followed him. The British could do nothing because Gandhi did not incite others to follow him in any way. The march lasted from March 12 to April 6, 1930.

Do tell us how making one's own salt aided and abetted the Imperial Japanese Army..........

Of course, the Japanese at the time were delightful fellows who welcomed non-Japanese with open arms.

Wholly irrelevant to the issue at bar. Try again.

As mentioned above, its because we bankrupted ourselves saving the rest of the world. Those countries asked, and were given, their independence.

"Given" being an interesting term, especially as regards South Africa, Rhodesia and Kenya, to name but three.......... The bottom line is that Britain was bled white by wars that all but wiped out two consecutive generations and could not hold onto its now-restive colonies.

Quote:
Lecture us about Britain as the premiere empire when you actually KNOW something about world history.

Thats good advice, perhaps you should follow it?

I did - now it's your turn.
 
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