Once and for all: CA DOJ answer to SAIGA question

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silverlance

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To make a long story depressingly short, all SAIGAs are banned in the PRK.

...................
Dear Mr. Chow,

Your request for information has been received and reviewed. All "AK
series" weapons are banned in California regardless on make and model.
Please do not hesitate to contact the Firearms Division at (916)
263-4887 if you have any further questions or concerns.

Sincerely,

Nate Barrell, Analyst
Firearms Division

>>> Sally Carney 09/13/06 2:14 PM >>>


>>> <[email protected]> 6/29/2006 8:06 PM >>>
Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by
([email protected]) on Friday, June 30, 2006 at 03:06:16
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Kevin Chow
Telephone:
feedback: Department of the Attorney General:

I am considering the purchase of a European American Armory Saiga
7.62x39mm rifle but would first like to ensure that it is legal for me
to do so as a resident of the state of California.

The rifle in question:

EAA European American Armory Corp.
402 Richard Road
Rockledge, FL. 32955

Make: Saiga 16.5" Barrel, Sporting Rifle
Caliber: 7.62x39mm
Pistol Grip: NO. Hunting stock only.
Bayonet Lug: NO.
Detachable Magazine: YES, 10RND.
Flash Suppressor: NO.
Threaded Barrel: NO.
Action: Semi-automatic, gas-piston

The Saiga rifle in question was manufactured by Izmash and imported
through EAA Corp. It is NOT imported by Kalashnikov USA, and therefore
is not listed under the Roberti-Roos list.

Nor does this rifle have the characteristics necessary to be deemed
"assault weapon" under CA law.

Then, is this rifle legal for me to purchase and own in california?

And, if it is, will I be allowed to register it should it one day be
added to the Roberti-Roos list?

Sincerely,
Kevin Chow

ps: I am of course a law-abiding citizen and there is nothing that
prevents me from being able to legally own any otherwise
California-legal firearm.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...

Your best options for semi-auto combat-practical (rules BAR rifles out, only 3-5 rounds in magazine) are in order of my opinion of them:

1. SU16CA
2. M1A Standard (not SOCOM / II)
3. Norinco Paratrooper SKS, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine (.30 cal)
4. Ruger Mini-14, Mini-30
5. FN-49 & K43
6. CA-FAL (get the parts to convert it back, save them for the big earthquake)
7. CA-AR15 (NOT the welded shut receiver one. That one is POS.)
8. Hakim, Rashid, MAS (with grenade launcher cut off)

I think I got all of them.
 
I used to think that all Saigas were banned, but I was mistaken, so is the person who replied to you. European American Armory Saigas are banned, but Russian American Armory Saigas are not banned. I saw a nice RAA Saiga in a gunshop last week. The person answering your email is also mistaken to think that all AK series weapons are banned. Only AK series weapons that are listed on the banned list, or AK series weapons that are configured as assault weapons are banned. To get the final word I would have them issue you a memo stating their opinion on the RAA version, and not rely on an email.
 
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So how does this PRK employee get away with being ignorant?:banghead: :fire: :cuss: This person is clearly wrong and clearly (to me) trying to mislead Mr. Chow into thinking he would be breaking the law. Mr Chow would not be breaking the law by purchasing this weapon. The weapon in question is not listed by make and model on the list.

What action are we as citizens able to take for the state lying to us?
We are told by judges that ignorance is no excuse for breaking a law, right?
 
So how does this PRK employee get away with being ignorant? This person is clearly wrong and clearly (to me) trying to mislead Mr. Chow into thinking he would be breaking the law. Mr Chow would not be breaking the law by purchasing this weapon. The weapon in question is not listed by make and model on the list.
Click to expand...
Several years ago when I worked for the sheriff in Kings Co., CA, I was asked to testify as an expert witness on what constitutes an AK-47 rifle under the Roberti-Roos 'Assault Weapons' Control Act. I declined and suggested the sheriff get an expert witness from CA DOJ. I was told CA DOJ didn't have any experts who could testify because even they were confused what was an AK-47 rifle under the law.

Pilgrim
 
saigas

Well, as I mailed the poster who said he saw a CA shop selling a saiga, I'd love to be first in line. I'm not holding my breath, though.

However, I should point out two things:

1: The letter is from the DOJ.

2: In a recent (i forget when and which) addenum, added soon after the so-called unlisted AR lower loophole was closed, the law was changed to make illegal any "AR or AK series type firearm". One CAN however argue that the Saiga is not an AK series firearm as it can neither (in its stock configuration) take AK magazines or AK pistol stocks.

as for the rest, I'll wait to see what comes of this fabled gun shop.
 
In my opinion, the Saiga rifles (and shotguns, even) are as much AKs as a Galil is an AK, a CZ-75 is a Browning High Power, an AK is an SKS, a Ruger Mini-30 is an M1 Carbine or M1A, or a Browning High Power is a 1911. It sounds to me like you were fed a solid line of bull.

The line of reasoning being employed here by the originator of this email would also imply that the SU-16 is an "AR series" because it can take the same magazines and can be modified to have the same feel as the AR (if the owner were so inclined, I imagine). The only "AK series" rifles I know of are the ones which are operationally functional with the original accessories - that is, ones which can take AK magazines and have the same operational characteristics, minor tweaks and differences withstanding (forged vs. stamped recievers, for instance).

But, the logic put forth by this person is hardly surprising; it's pretty much par for the course for gun banners, and they'll say whatever it takes to "keep the guns off the streets"!
 
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The idiot that replied that it was not legal, only saw "DETACHEABLE MAGAZINE" and did not read the rest, that rifle should be legal with no problems. If you see it and its for sail, get it. All AK and AR weapons that meet the state requirements for an "ASSAULT RIFLE" this rifle does not, this person is just under educated and giving you the generic answer.
 
2: In a recent (i forget when and which) addenum, added soon after the so-called unlisted AR lower loophole was closed, the law was changed to make illegal any "AR or AK series type firearm". One CAN however argue that the Saiga is not an AK series firearm as it can neither (in its stock configuration) take AK magazines or AK pistol stocks.
Click to expand...

Unless the CA DOJ wants to attempt to exert authority over the California Supreme Court and the California constitution, they cannot make such a determination. The Kasler v. Lockyer decision by the California Supreme Court determined that only guns listed by the DOJ are banned. The Kasler v. Lockyer decision then prevented the current laws from banning AR and AK series guns. The DOJ cannot then just say that a gun uses a particular operating system and therefore it is prima facie banned. The DOJ must list that particular gun for it to be banned. While the Kalashnikov USA, EAA, and RAA Saigas are all mechanically the same gun, because they are technically a different make and model, they are not the same under the current law.

as for the rest, I'll wait to see what comes of this fabled gun shop.
Click to expand...

I sent you a PM, but for everyone else, the shop I saw the RAA Saiga was Ade's Gun Shop in Orange.
 
Your request for information has been received and reviewed. All "AK series" weapons are banned in California regardless on make and model.
Please do not hesitate to contact the Firearms Division at (916)
263-4887 if you have any further questions or concerns
Click to expand...

*** is an AK series weapon? Last I checked, there is the AK, and there is everything else. Perhaps AK-based is the term he wanted.

Anyway, lumping Saiga's in with AK's is like calling anything with rear wheel drive and leaf springs part of the "pick-up truck series" :rolleyes:. Related to or based on does not a clone make.
 
I don't think that the Saiga is a "ak series" weapon at all, as far as it's nomenclature goes, is it? I dont believe Saiga calls it an , 'ak-xxx' anything.
And I think this is what gets Cali's panties all up in a wad anyway.
 
Did you guys notice...

Did you guys notice that the .gov guy didn't actually answer the question? He didn't say that SAIGA was an "AK". He said "No AK's". He may have wanted you to imply that he was telling you you couldn't buy a SAIGA, but in fact, he never actually said such a thing.
 
Your best options for semi-auto combat-practical (rules BAR rifles out, only 3-5 rounds in magazine) are in order of my opinion of them:

1. SU16CA
2. M1A Standard (not SOCOM / II)
3. Norinco Paratrooper SKS, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine (.30 cal)
4. Ruger Mini-14, Mini-30
5. FN-49 & K43
6. CA-FAL (get the parts to convert it back, save them for the big earthquake)
7. CA-AR15 (NOT the welded shut receiver one. That one is POS.)
8. Hakim, Rashid, MAS (with grenade launcher cut off)

I think I got all of them.
Click to expand...

It's not common, but don't forget the AG-42B Ljungman-the Swedish rifle that the Hakim was copied from.

Also, what's the People's Kommissariat's position on the BM-59?
 
SAIGAS

Did you guys notice that the .gov guy didn't actually answer the question?
Click to expand...

Hm. Good point.

Ok, for the sake of everyone (ok everyone a round of applause please :p ) I am going to leave the kids in the room doing "independent study time" while I call the CA DOJ and ask them why the Saiga is banned. Any thoughts on how I should word my question?

The Saiga that I really want is actually not even a rifle - as far as I'm concerned I've got the rifle part covered. I REALLY want the Saiga-12. To me, that's the penultimate urban/suburban home defense firearm. Short, knockdown power, and magazine loaded. Heck, I'm willing to pay $800 for one and I KNOW they aren't worth anywhere near that much.

So, folks... help me formulate some good questions. I tend to stick my foot in my mouth when confronted with "big questions".


ps: yes, I rememberd the llungman...but then i'd have to include the SVT40 and the others that cost an arm and a leg.
 

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yes it is legal

I called around cali, and so far there is only one gun shop that has balls and will sell the SAIGA. (The aforementioned 'Ades Gun Shop' in orange). All the other shops I called, mainly Nor-Cal, state that any gun with an AK-type receiver is banned..... complete BS according to the state legislature. I have called the DOJ, left message of course, as well as the DA to get a statement of legality. If I can get one from either resource, there will be a second dealer in Nor-Cal that will import the SAIGAs.... time will tell

SilverLance, did you ever get a response?
 
You could always get one of these, still relatively cheap, a Czech VZ 52 rifle 10 shot semi auto, but I dont think California would allow the folding bayonet.:cuss:
 
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You could always get one of these, still relatively cheap, a Czech VZ 52 rifle 10 shot semi auto, but I dont think California would allow the folding bayonet.
Click to expand...

California does not list bayonets as an assault weapon characteristic, so the VZ-52 is perfectly California legal.
 
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