One of those darn "what powder" threads; .357 and .40

[RyanM]

Looks like I'll be getting a Lee Turret press for Christmas! And as long as I'm not outbid, some very nice (non-Lee) dies to go with it, and other accessories. I may need to hand measure charges for awhile, though, until I can afford a couple Lee powder through expander dies and an Auto Disk powder measure. I'm probably going have to pay for everything but the press myself.

So, I've already got an okay amount of .357, .38, and .40 brass. I have some idea of what bullets I want to use. Just need to decide on a powder. What I need is a powder which is suitable for full power (equal to factory loads) .40 S&W loads, and reduced-power .357 loads. Given the cost of powder, I'd really prefer one type for both calibers. Minimal flash and fouling are plusses. And I'd prefer something that can be used with an automatic powder feeder thingie (press-mounted or not).

Specifically, I want a .40 S&W load that pushes a 180 grain JHP at a hair over 1000 fps from a 4" barrel, and .357 magnum loads that launch a 140 grain pill at ~1000 fps or 158 gr at ~900, out of a 2.25" barrel. The .357 mag loads translate to approximately 140 gr at 1120 fps from a 4" barrel or 1190 fps from a 6", or 158 gr at 1000 fps 4" / 1050 fps 6".

So what'd work best for those kinds of loads? There seem to be a number of powders that meet the velocity requirements easily, but most have some flaw holding them back. Bullseye, Red Dot, and Unique are filthy. Universal can spike in pressure at the upper end of .40 S&W book loads. HiSkor 800-X doesn't meter well at all. Power Pistol is amazingly loud and flashy.

And on those .357 mag loads, does anyone have experience with how well various hollowpoints in those two weights expand and penetrate at those velocities? Specifically, I'm looking at 140 and 158 gr Remington SJHPs and 140 gr Speer Gold Dots, since those seem to be easier to obtain than decent performing 158 gr lead HPs.

 

[only1asterisk]

Winchester 231 data 950 fps with the 40 S&W/180, but otherwise would be great.

It is a good powder if you are only buying one.

David

 

[redneck2]

You might look at Accurate 5 or 7. I use AA5 a lot for 45 acp, 45 Colt, and less than totally screaming 10mm. Clean, meters great.

I'm also trying some Universal Clays. Not enough used to pass judgement yet, but a lot of guys here like it. Quite honestly, at this point I don't see a lot of difference between that and AA5 right now

If you shoot as much as you should, a pound won't last long anyway

 

[only1asterisk]

Accurate #5 would be another fine choice. Perfect for the 40 S&W. I'd like a bulkier powder for the 357 loads. Some people report problems with the small grains binding powder measures, but I've never had this happen.

David

 

[caz223]

Unique, blue dot, 2400, and power pistol all easily qualify.
They cover a lot of calibers.
Power pistol/blue dot seems like a no-brainer.

 

[BigSlick]

Hodgdon Universal meets your criteria (per published data), but I have no personal experience with it.

I can recommend HS-6 as an excellent alternative. You might try one of the other powders that provide slightly slower burn carachteristics... e.g. Winchester WSF or AA#7 to name a couple. Slower powders will give you the velocity you seek from the shorter barrels, but just about any powder in this dwell range will give some flash.

I use a lot of Titegroup for range fodder because it is easy to load, burns very clean (*if* you get the pressure up a little) and is economical. Zero flash to boot.

AA#5 is a very good choice as well. I too use a lot of it in .45 ACP. It meters like water, is reasonably clean and uniformity is outstanding.

The issue you face is using a magnum (typically slower) suitable powder and mention 40 SW in the same criteria. Two opposite ends of the spectrum in some respects.

As a result, a compromise will come into play somewhere (as you know).

Is the issue of loading with two different powders to gain optimal performance that big of an issue ? I don't fault your intention in the least, it just that of the powders that might be a ~decent compromise, none of them do either task particularly well without giving up any hope of economy.

Universal looks like it might get you pretty close to what you're asking, but I don't know a soul that uses it, or ever has in anything other than shotgun loads.

I hate facing such decision in my loadings, never a really good answer. At times, I'm too damned cheap or don't shoot the load enought to warrant an additional powder. Every time I try to compromise, I end up buying the powder best suited to the job at hand and end up with half a pound of the proposed compromise miracle powder I don't use.

The one exception to this has been Titegroup. Overall, it does an 85% good job in just about every caliber I load with it. With 45 ACP, 500SW, 40 SW and 9mm, it will certainly deliver rounds downrange. Not with the highest performace, but excellent accuracy and low cost per round.

In each of the above, I ended up going to another powder better suited to the caliber at hand and ended up MUCH happier with my loads. I still shoot a lot of TG, but for anything other than a plinking or sight in round I don't use it.

Given your situation, I would go with H4227 for the .357 and HS-6/AA#5/WSF for the 40SW. That would give you LOTS more options with both calibers. The ,38 could work well with the chosen 40SW powder with the right load. AA#7 as a possible option if AA#5 or HS-6 is too fast for your liking. WSF, is between the two.

Hope some of this might be useful...

BigSlick

 

[only1asterisk]

WSF would work for both, but HS-6 has more published data available. HS-6 has a rep for being "dirty" but most powders have been tagged with that label at one time or another.

David

 

[HSMITH]

Power Pistol. I would NOT even consider trying to take a 180 to 1000 fps from a 4" barrel with Universal or Super Field. Both start to get hinky at the upper end and Universal gets positively scary. Same thing in your short barrel 357.

Unique is stable and might get it done for you too. HS6 will do it, but with large charges and less than stellar performance in 38. HS6 wants more pressure. Same with Blue Dot, inconsistant at lower pressures.

Not a big fan of the AA powders, have used them very little.

There are two Ramshot powders that might be good, but very little data out there that I can find. Makes load workups a little sketchy.

N340 will do the 40 and probably the 357 with lower flash and quite clean.

Flash and noise at the velocities you want are going to be nearly impossible to eliminate. If you are loading practice ammo flash really doesn't matter, nor does noise. I would suggest you get some reloading experience under your belt before loading carry ammo.

 

[rick_in_lb]

RyanM, Powders and weights are like presses, everyone has their favorites. I really like W231 and my son likes to use American Select.
W231 40cal 155gr 4.9gr---38 158gr 4.1 gr & 357 6.1gr
Amer Select 40Cal 155gr 5.3gr--38 158gr 4.3gr & 357 6.0gr

Check out this help for ideas
...http://www.handloads.com

Hope these help & Reload Safe
<><

 

[RyanM]

Update: An old, rusty Lyman Ideal model 55 powder measure is now on the way, so I'd prefer powders that work well with that.

Lots of good advice, thanks everyone.

It seems like the powders that got the most votes are a tiny bit slower in .40 than what I'm looking for, though. Online book loads with 180 gr Hornady XTP:

AA#5 6.6 gr 965 fps 32,500 psi
AA#7 8.5 gr 978 fps 34,600 psi
HS-6 6.9 gr 976 fps 32,500 psi

Though, considering that the factory loads I'm trying to duplicate are usually several tens of FPS below what's advertised, those may be fine as long as those figures aren't also higher than what I'll actually get outten a G23. If I only had a chronograph...

The issue you face is using a magnum (typically slower) suitable powder and mention 40 SW in the same criteria. Two opposite ends of the spectrum in some respects.

Actually, though, I don't really plan on going anywhere near the upper end of the .357 scale. Even though I'm using a built-like-a-tank Ruger (which you could probably guess from the barrel length), I'm limited by how much recoil I can take. Ten rounds per range trip isn't my idea of useful practice.

With the right powder, 158 gr JHP at 1000 fps from a 4" barrel is more like a .38 +P+ load, though some of the max loads with fast powders are around that velocity (particularly with data from IMR, since their loads never exceed 36,000 CUP, while the maximum pressure for .357 is 35,000 PSI, which is more like 45,000 CUP).

I may yet decide to download even further to 135/140 gr at ~860 fps, now that Speer is finally selling their 135 grain .38 SPL short barrel Gold Dots in component form. I guess I just need a powder that's relatively powerful in .40 S&W, but still happy at .38 +P+ levels (in .357 magnum brass, of course). And I guess I can't forget about those .38 cases.

Flash and noise at the velocities you want are going to be nearly impossible to eliminate. If you are loading practice ammo flash really doesn't matter, nor does noise. I would suggest you get some reloading experience under your belt before loading carry ammo.

I'm definitely going to try and get a few hundred of each caliber loaded and fired without incident, then probably buy new brass for the carry ammo. Maybe even use nickel cases, so I can tell at a glance what I've got loaded. But I'm really trying to get one powder that does well in those two calibers, and is suitable for both carry and practice. I just plain don't have enough money to spend $20 per powder. And at this point in my reloading "career," I don't trust myself with more than one powder; don't want to accidentally substitute Clays for H-110, or something. That would be A Very Bad Thing.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Then go with W-231. One thing I did find out about W-231 is that in some of the longer barrels it gets a little wild and scatters bullets. Might be just the rifling per inch. My Colt SAA 4 3/4" and Ruger 6 1/2" .357 magnums really doen't like W-231. But every thing else does...It works wonders in my 2 1/2" model 19 S&W and my 5' Colt .45 ACP though...

 

[only1asterisk]

Ryan,

I'd like to talk you into holding off reloading for your glock. Resizing the case bulge will shorten the life of the brass greatly. If you decide to reload for your Glock you may want to consider backing off a bit. The photo below is a factory load, but the same could easily happen with a handload.

Image from: http://greent.com/40Page/general/kb.htm

David

 

[HSMITH]

The FC marked Federal cases are known for case failures. EVERY 40 reloader should make all efforts to make darn sure one of them NEVER gets reloaded.

 

[Doug b]

that looks to me to be a lot of unsupported casing.

 

[RyanM]

Only1*, I'm actually already aware of the problem with Glock feed ramps, and I would agree with you 100% if my Glock were still factory stock. I've shipped the barrel off to Randy Ketchum for an "atomic Glock" modification, like what Clark did (don't hit the panic button just yet). It's the same guy doing the welding, so I imagine mine will turn out equally durable. And since Randy is also doing the machining as well (Clark machined his himself), I expect it'll look a little prettier.

And no, I do not plan to replicate Clark's insane atomic loads as well. It's just that getting the barrel welded and machined actually costs less than buying an aftermarket barrel. Even a Federal barrel costs more. There is the potential that feed reliability may be compromised, but given that Clark's barrel with the asymmetrical feed ramp and no throating works just fine, even with cartridges that are too long, I think it'll be fine. But I'll run another 200 rounds of (factory loaded) carry ammo through it before actually using it for CCW, of course.

Though if I were reloading for a stock Glock, I'd probably try IMR Hi-Skor 800-X (with book loads, reduced by 10%, etc.) and see what happens. IMR's online data claims a 180 gr XTP at 1030 fps from a 4" barrel, with only 26,000 PSI of pressure! Most other full power .40 loads are 33,000 PSI or higher, and the SAAMI maximum is 35,000.

And thanks for the info about Federal cases, HSmith. I did not know that. Fortunately, the only brands I have are Winchester and a handful of Speer.

 

[Cherokee]

Re the comments on WW231 - I recmmend this power as I have used in in everything from 25 ACP to 45 Colt. One of the most accurate 44 Mag loads in my Redhawk is a heavy WW231 load. I find WST also great along with HS6.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Why thank you Cherokee....Much ablidged.

 

[Major Beer]

HS-6

i like it

 

[Khornet]

In seeking one powder for

my .40 Glock, S&W .357, and .45 ACPs I finally settled on AA#5. It really meters well, and covers most of the ground for these calibers. You can't load the hotter end for some, but you can get hot enough.

I've loaded, oh, 10,000 rounds in my Glock 22 and I guess I must've already blowed up and I'm actually in Heaven now. But I thought you didn't have to work for a living in Heaven, and your hair stopped falling out.

Just load carefully, don't push it, check brass, make sure you don't get bullet setback, and don't load your brass too many times. You'll be fine.

 

[Grump]

IME, any load that will leave a "smiley face" crease from a Glock feed ramp is already well above 33,000 PSI and should not be replicated.

No factory load I have ever fired in a .40 Glock left a "bulge" from the unsupported feedramp area.

Similarly, no reload from a published manual did so, either. I *did* have some "smileys" from trying to push 180-grain lead bullets above 950 fps with WW-231, but that was going beyond the Winchester-recommended loads (should have been possible with jacketed 180s, but that's another hashed-out thread).

It's sad that no "hard" data on either brass thickness/dimensions or alloy characteristics has ever been published regarding the older Federal .40 S&W cases and the legendary "new and improved" Federal .40 brass. No one has even been able to tell me whether there is a difference in headstamps from those old (pre-1994?) weak versions...

 

[RyanM]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/40s&w.htm

Looking at the test data for my bullet of choice (180 grain Golden Sabers), it looks like they perform best at the upper end of the velocity scale. There were a few core-jacket seperations at the 900-950 fps velocity range, when fired through heavy clothing. With that in mind, it looks like handloaded carry ammo (when I've got more reloading experience under my belt) may be the way to go. If I individually hand weigh charges and double check critical dimensions with a caliper, I don't see how it'd be worse than factory stuff.

While it HP-38/WW231 and HS-6 are popular choices, they're both a tiny bit slow.

HP-38 5.0 gr 947 fps 32,900 psi
HS-6 6.9 gr 976 fps 32,500 psi

Going by published data from the powder manufacturers, it looks like if I want velocities of 1015 fps or up, powder choices are limited to:

Alliant
Bullseye 5.5 1015 33,900
2400 10.9 1025 33,900
Herco 7.0 1045 34,000
Power Pistol 6.9 1050 33,700
Blue Dot 8.8 1065 34,000
Unique 6.4 1065 33,800

Accurate
AA #9 11.0 1019 35,000

IMR
HiSkor 800-X 7.2 1030 26,000

VihtaVuori (5.5" test barrel)
N340 6.0 1091
3N37 6.6 1095
N350 6.6 1126

Any of which (with the exception of AA#9) would probably work fine in reduced power .357 loads.

At this point, I'm really leaning towards either Power Pistol or Unique. I guess I need to decide if I'd rather put up with flash or filth. Though I'm a little suspicious of Alliant's numbers, since so few powders from other manufacturers break the 1,000 fps mark. Man, I wish I could afford to buy a bunch of powders to experiment with.

Oh, if anyone's interested, my current equipment setup is now as follows:
Lee 3-hole turret press with auto-index
"Vintage" Lyman Ideal #55 powder measure
"Vintage, collectible" Redding #2 scale
Hornady .357 magnum/.38 SPL dies with TiNi lining ($12.55 for a set of 3, wow!)
No .40 dies yet
Lee shellplates
Frankfort Arsenal digital caliper

Lots of different manufacturers. All I need is something made by RCBS (maybe the .40 dies) and something from Dillon (maybe a shell holding tray or something), and I'd have something from every major manufacturer.

 

[Cloudpeak]

I started loading with Unique with my cast, 40 cal Lee bullets but switched to Power Pistol because Unique didn't feed as well through my Hornady LNL powder measure. I found accurate loadings for both powders but much prefer Power Pistol because of it's consistant accuracy through my measure.

Cloudpeak

 

[RyanM]

Hm. After reading through the archives some more, it appears that it is possible to get a Lyman Ideal #55 to throw consistent charges of HiSkor 800-X, so I can't quite rule that powder out yet. And Longshot looks very interesting, though it's not incredible for very heavy bullets, and is pretty average in revolver loads.

So now I guess the powder choice is narrowed down to Power Pistol, Unique, HiSkor 800-X, and Longshot.

 

[W Turner]

I can't speak to the appropriateness of AA#5 for .357 yet, or for .40, but I can tell you that it gets along with the Lyman #55 just fine.

I have been using this combnation for .45acp and the throws rarely vary from what is set. When it does vary it is never more than .1gr. One reason I like AA powders so much. Clean burning (at the upper ends of the power spectrum for caliber), and they meter great for me.


W

 

[Khornet]

Using published data

from Accurate, I've gotten 1250 fps from my .357 with 140 gr bullets with no pressure signs or other problems.

I've metered it with both a Hornady and RCBS charge thrower, and charges are very consistent.