One Shot Stopping Stats on Goats.

[isp2605]

wbond defended himself with:
"Look, I was only repeating the urban legend as I've heard it in many gun stores, including from store employees. I've heard it many times.

If the story-legend I heard is wrong, don't castigate me for it. I never said it happened. I never presented it as historical fact. I only presented it as the story I've heard many times, which it is. What I said was that's the story I've heard and I don't think the facts back up the story.

You've pointed out that the story was wrong at its root. That isn't my fault. I repeated it as I've heard it, and I said it was a "story". "


A rudimentary knowledge of either the .38 Spl or .45 ACP development would been evident that the story you used to base your premise had to be false. They weren't around when the battle with the Moros occurred. You used that "story" as your basis for your theory. Regardless if you've heard the same stories for eons and repeatedly, it doesn't make them correct, nor do they lend any credibility to your theory. Repeating wrong information doesn't make the info any more correct and only goes to prove a lack of knowledge by the writer.
My point is if you are going to quote historical "facts" then just make sure they are facts and not some gun shop commando yarn. Novices are filled with, and spread, enough internet BS about firearms without perpetuating the errors and quoting them as if they are factual. In other words, the facts are fairly easy to discern but it only takes a basic understanding of the topic.

 

[wbond]

To ISP 2605:

Those are not the basis of my theory. Perhaps you shoud read more carefully. Do you have a reading comphrehension or retention problem?

You really don't know when to back off and stop attacking me. I turned the other cheek the first time and even thanked you for your information. I was gracious, which is clearly a concept you don't understand. Not this time. Reread what I said more carefully, or go away.

If you were as smart as you think you are, you'd be capable of understanding the difference between someone clearly referring to a story they've heard vs. quoting it as history. I don't think anyone else has a problem understanding the difference.

You aren't as smart as you think you are. I'm not as dumb as you think I am.

What do you do for a living? I ask because that's a good indication of intelligence. I'm betting your line of work will indicate you are not in a position to attack my intelligence or anyone elses.

 

[Mortech]

Why can I imagine Ayoob sitting somewhere laughing at us about this thread ?? Oh and ditto on closing this topic PLEASE!!!

 

[isp2605]

I understood what you were writing. I also understood that you didn't understand. You were repeating rumors and gun shop commando stories which showed you didn't know about what you were writing about. I simply pointed out that your information you were spreading was erroneous and was simply BS. If you don't like it, then take it up with your buddies who told you those stories in the first place.

 

[Mooseman]

Wow, this thread has made me feel really informed, I'm sorry I meant confused I'll still be carrying my sp101, goat or no goat. BTW has anyone here had goat cooked with Pakistani curry? Very awesome, if you don't mind hot stuff.

 

[meef]

Okay now.... this thread is really starting to get my goat.

Oh crap!! They got him in the lungs!!

Whoa...he's staggering!

7 seconds..... 9 seconds..... 10.94 seconds...... he's down!

Musta been a .380.








Sorry..... sometimes I just can't control myself....

 

[wbond]

OK Meef. Now throw that goat on the barbecue!

Anyone know how to cook goat? We need some Pakistanis to be the chefs.

I'm hungry now. Maybe I can convince my local gun club to have a barbecue. One of the members is Kurdish and he owns the local gunstore too. Maybe he knows how to barbecue a goat.

 

[sgt127]

The REAL theory of stopping power: Poke a hole. Poke the biggest hole you can as deep as you can.

I could set up the same test to PROVE the ball ammo worked better.

Get a fat goat and shoot at an angle that requires at least 14 inches of penetration to reach the spine All the high speed hollow points will go through meat and stop. The ball will go right through and hit the spine and the goat will collapse instantly. Now, I've PROVEN the ball ammo is better.

Chances are, if facing an opponent, you most likely will not get a side shot to shoot through both lungs.

Its all a guess. Putting the bullet where it needs to go is still the most important thing, shooting the most powerful round you can control is second place.

I think a bullet that expands too quickly and doesn't reach anything important is a bad thing. At the distance I envision a self defense encounter occuring, I am willing to take my chances with 158 gr .357 Magnum hollowpoints or semiwadcutters....And, right now, I am kinda leaning towards the Semiwadcutters.



wbond



OK Meef. Now throw that goat on the barbecue!

Anyone know how to cook goat? We need some Pakistanis to be the chefs.

I'm hungry now.

Buddy, you don't need to go to Pakistan, you should see what our neighbors to the south of us can do with a goat...Many a cabrito taco has been washed down my gullet!

 

[Mooseman]

Next stop cabrito taco! I hope they sell them on south street!

 

[Socrates]

Well, this is why God created .454, .44 magnum, .475 Linebaugh, .500 JRH Maximum, .500 Linebaugh. Wonder how the goats would react, considering that repeated .45 linebaugh colt loads have put down cape buffalos...

Frankly, I think the gun press, and the industry, have created this situation. They constantly compare calibers that are similar in their inadequacy, because police, and other government agencies need to be politically correct. If I'm justified to shoot, I can use whatever I have, including a shotgun, or in my case 375 H&H. This of course, REALLY varies, according to the Republic you live in...

.44 magnum should be the round of choice, if police could hit their target...
s

 

[sm]

Jim Cirillo has had a few things to say about various rounds he has used on human opponents. He has published some of his observations. He speaks of more in person.

His first-hand first-person observations are enlightening.

I am also VERY interested in Jim Cirillo , any and everything he has to share!

Goats? Not going to post in regard to goats and ammo, as topic causes grief and sometimes gets locked. so tread lightly here folks. Remain civil, and attack the idea - not the poster.

I do know a goat is DRT when nailed by a Peterbuilt...

 

[TrapperReady]

I do know a goat is DRT when nailed by a Peterbuilt...

I know of a Peterbuilt that was nearly DRT when it nailed a dairy cow.

Sorta like holding a .45acp steady and hitting it with a perp going 950 fps.

 

[P. Plainsman]

Didn't Ayoob shoot steers at a slaughter house? No one cried to much about that because the steers were going to be slaughtered anyway. However, I think we all know that shooting a steer with a handgun might be cruel since the animal is to big for the gun.

Here's what I read:

Massad Ayoob . . . [tested the .38+P] lead HP load on pigs in a slaughterhouse. Briefly, he tried a number of .380 auto loads, and none performed really well. Some did a poor enough job that he decided that it was inhumane to continue using them, if memory serves. Then, he tried the lead .38 Special HP. It routinely went through the heavy skin, the thick skull, and either lodged at the rear of the brain case or penetrated beyond. (Results varied with the particular shot.) Deaths were pretty much instant, with extensive brain damage. He feels that this was exceptional performance from a compact, handy sidearm.

Sorry -- gruesome reading, but interesting data.

 

[C-grunt]

The problem with the goat test is that it isnt people. I personally have seen many people shot and the only rounds, from my experience, that have killed a person 100 percent of the time is .50 BMG and 25mm. Anything smaller is a compromise.

 

[Trebor]

The Strasburg Tests are essentially useless for several reasons.

The first, and most significant, reason is that there is no way to validate that the tests actually occurred. They may well have been conducted, but the only evidence is the unsigned abstract from the tests. This was what was used to write those famous magazine articles back in the '80s. Dean Speir has a copy of the abstract up at The Gune Zone.

http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html

The problem is that an abstract is just a summary of the test. It is not the actual complete documentation of the test itself. The other problem is that there is no identifying informatioin on the abstract. No one has come forward to claim authorship. Without that kind of information, the information is worthless from a scientific point of view. If you don't know the source of the data, how can you trust the data or the results?

The second reason that the tests are essentially worthless now is that ammo development has changed significantly since the test was supposedly conducted. There are choices now that were not available when the test happened (if it happened) and there were loads used that have since been disncontinued. In short, even if the data is real, it is so old as to be of very limited use.

The third reason not to rely too heavily on the tests is that goats are not people. If, and this is a big "if", the data could be shown to valid and there was proof the tests occurred, the info gained from shooting goats could be used as part of the data needed to judge the effectiveness of handgun rounds. Other sources of data, such as gelatin tests, anecdotal evidence from shootings, etc, would also have to be evaluated.

I have a copy of the Strasburg tests, and also Marshall's. They are real close in results. I use this info in my ammo choices.

What you probably have is the abstract, as reproduced at The Gun Zone. If you have the complete results, I'd love to see it.

 

[MCgunner]

I stopped in a hole in the wall on the way back from Monterrey, Mexico where I was returning from a motorcycle race, once. I ordered "Cabrito" (young goat, usually grilled). I'm not convinced what I ate wasn't a dog, though. It was tough and generally bad, but it's amazing what you'll eat when you're hungry. I drank the water there, was thirsty, too. Thank goodness I didn't pay for that. I have a pretty strong gut, though.

 

[1 old 0311]

Hi Trebor,

Actually it is "The Ultimate Handgun Stopping Power Test." This was printed in the September 1993 Handguns Magazine. It is 8 pages. I can fax you a copy if you like.


Kevin

 

[Trebor]

Kevin,

I've probably seen it. In any event, it's not the actual Strassburg test documents. It's probably an article based on the absract of the Strassburg test. The full report has never been released.

 

[lacy]

goats

i dont have a problem with people shootin goats.. as long as im invited to the bar b que.. im hungry