Online reference describing legalities of shipping firearms

[ddc]

Hello,

I'm in the middle of trying to find an FFL who will receive a gun I purchased from an out of state party.

Both FFL's that I've talked to insist the the sender has to send the gun through an FFL.

I've tried to explain that only the receiving entity needs to be an FFL but nobody is buying it.

Can anybody point me towards an online, government hosted, document that explicity defines what is legal and what is not?

I've found a number of online references but they are all located at sites such as gunbroker or other commercial site and I don't think an FFL is going to be all that impressed with that, assuming I can even get them to log on to the internet to check which is doubtful. I'll probably have to print something out.

I've checked the ATF site but couldn't find anything there but it is a big site; maybe somebody else has a pointer.

Thanks,
Don.

 

[71Commander]

Don't know if this will help.

http://www.gunbroker.com/user/ShippingGuide.asp

 

[ddc]

Thanks, I'd found that.

My concern was showing someone an excerpt from the documentation on a commercial, non-atf or non-treasury website wouldn't have the same impact that being able to point to the actual document at the appropriate government website would have.

But maybe I can chase down an online copy of those regulations given the description ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4).

 

[HKrazy]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--

Subpart I--Exemptions, Seizures, and Forfeitures

Sec. 478.147 Return of firearm.

A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may
ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other
provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or
licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that
person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type.
See Sec. 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A
person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship
a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose,
and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed
collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person
the firearm curio or relic.

 

[musher]

Or, you can direct them to the ATF's online FAQ for firearms. Item B.9 covers your point I believe...

ATF Firearms FAQ

 

[Arc-Lite]

ddc...if all parties the seller the ffl holder and your ffl holder are set on this, then.. if you want the gun....better play by their rules. allot of this, is to insure it is not a hot gun... you can ship your gun, to an ffl, and he can ship your gun back to you, but not in a new transaction.... this is an extra service, for a fee, they can with draw their interest if it all becomes to much of a head ache....which leaves you...with zero. Arc-Lite

 

[ddc]

It looks like I am going to be forced to play this as Arc-Lite suggests.

Both FFLs continue to insist that the sending party must be an FFL.

One of the FFLs even called up the Seattle branch of the ATF and they told him the same thing!

I read him the regulation straight from the ATF web-site and he was very nice about the whole thing but basically said he felt his hands were tied and he didn't want to bug the ATF any more than necessary as it was way to easy for them to make life difficult for him.

He indicated that if he had a chance during the course of a casual conversation to clarify the situation he would but as of right now he feels he has to require the sender be an FFL holder.

Oh well... thanks for the feedback anyway.

 

[Rumpled]

Calling the ATF is the wrong thing to do - they do not know the rules they enforce.
Too bad both FFL's don't know the laws they have to follow.
As mentioned above B9 says it's legal.
You might have to suck it up on this one, but also might want to find a better FFL for the future.

From the horses mouth, including code
(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her
own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be
notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package
indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e), 27 CFR 178.31]

 

[Graystar]

There might be a state law that forces the FFLs into accepting firearms from other FFLs only. That's the case in New York.

Here in New York State not only do FFLs need to keep federally proscribed records, but also state proscribed records. When receiving a handgun, the firearm dealer must record the handgun and the *authority* under which the transferor possessed it.

Obviously, even though federal law allows a non-FFL to ship a handgun to an FFL, New York State FFLs would have no state-recognized authority to enter into the log. So in New York, FFLs only accept out-of-state guns from other FFLs.

New York does this because handguns are registered. If they didn't, a dealer can buy illegally possessed guns from anyone that walks into the shop, and simply say that he received them from an out of state individual. New York State law requires dealers to immediately notify police of any individual in possession of an unregistered handgun.

I don't know the specifics on Washington law, but I know that Title 9 Chapter 9.41 of the RCW does contain additional record-keeping requirement that are above and beyond what is federally required.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Both FFL's that I've talked to insist the the sender has to send the gun through an FFL.

Neither of those dealers wants your business. I'd say neither deserves your business.

 

[ddc]

Neither of those dealers wants your business. I'd say neither deserves your business.

I'd tend to agree with that sentiment except for the fact that they both have two of the more reasonable transfer fees I've come across in this area.

One of them charges a flat $10.00 plus sales tax making it $10.89. Much lower than that and you are talking single digit transfer fees. I'm actually very surprised that the fee is so low.

I've got three other quotes from FFLs in this area for $30, $35 and $50.

Just to play devil's advocate I could argue that the FFL who quoted me a $50.00 transfer fee is the FFL who doesn't want my business while the FFL who quotes me a $10.00 fee is very interested in it.

The thing is after talking to both these guys for some time I feel that they are each decent people who are sincerely trying to do the right thing but who are just mis-informed and who are a little scared of the ATF. One of them as much as admitted that he was concerned about antagonizing them by asking to many questions.

Very frustrating.

 

[loghomebuilders.org]

Hi ddc,

PM sent with local recommendation.

 

[ddc]

Thank you all for the feedback.
I'm going to go with the FFL with the $10 transfer fee this time for the cost factor and to move forward with the deal which I really don't want to let stagnate.
I'll continue to look into this as well.
loghomebuilders.org: thanks for the PM tip; I'll keep them in mind for "next time".

 

[Trebor]

Neither of those dealers wants your business. I'd say neither deserves your business.

I gotta disagree with you on that one. The dealers are trying to protect their license, their business and probably their livelihood. At least one of the dealers has received info from the ATF indicating that a FFL is required to send. I also disagree, but I can understand if a FFL dealer would defer to the ATF instead of a customer.

If the dealers really didn't want his business or didn't want to do transfers, they'd either not do them at all or charge an exorbinant amount. $10 is extremely reasonable. Heck, if I had a FFL, I'd charge $20 just for the hassle.

I will admit my thinking on these types of issues has changed after my recent (brief) job selling guns at a large chain store. Dealing with the law, ATF regs and NICS on a regular basis really changed my perceptions.

 

[sturmruger]

I was about to post this exact question, but used the search tool first.


Thanks for the help.