Options: SD on the Road

[PastorAaron]

Hey all,
A good friend of mine was driving in Green Bay a week or so ago and ended up in an interesting situation. It was after dark in a less safe part of town (two shootings recently). My friend is a delivery driver, so in advance, "avoid that spot" responses need not apply.
As he attempted to merge into the left lane, he noticed another motorist in his blind spot. Not wanting to cut the guy off, he gunned it and moved in front of the other motorist (probably cutting him off anyway). The man proceeded to follow him closely, flashing his lights, honking, etc. He went completely around a roundabout twice to no avail, the guy was on him. After a few turns he went into a driveway and lost track of his new friend.
Now it gets interesting. My friend pulled out of the driveway and drove about a block when the guy found him and ran him off the road. The other driver then got out of his car and began a slow approach toward my friend, throwing things, shouting profanity, and threatening him.
He never called the police, and driving to the police station never occurred to him. As the situation stood, all other options missed or exhausted, what would you recommend as the next course of action? CCW options welcomed, but others needed as well.
God Bless,
Aaron

 

[JustinJ]

I think what state he is will be important as laws vary. If able he obviously should have driven off after being run off the road. If he didn't call the police i assume its because he had no cell phone? Any cell phone can dial 911 so if a person doesn't have an activated cell phone an inactivated one should be kept for emergencies.

 

[Onward Allusion]

All the "depends on what State you're in" aside... If someone runs you off the road, it is pretty obvious they mean you harm. I really don't think they were gonna walk up to the car and ask you if you want to go out for a beer 'cause it was all a big misunderstanding. Your friend definitely should have called 911 and probably much earlier - like when the other car was tailing and flashing their lights.

 

[Owen Sparks]

If I had to go into a restrictive state like Wisconsin I would carry a heavy walking cane in the car. Sticks can be very effective weapons provided you practice. Walking sticks are legal everywhere and are generally superior to knives because of the reach advantage.
There have been a lot of threads about sticks on the non-weapon forum.

 

[Onward Allusion]

^^^^^

????? WI is a CCW State that recognizes the following States... [strike]currently has reciprocity with[/strike]

(32 States) Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands

UPDATE: The above list only represents States that WI recognizes. I should not have used the term RECIPROCITY. My apologies! As always, double check with the State for yourself!!!

 

[Owen Sparks]

My state is NOT on that list.

 

[tdstout]

Why not Oklahoma? We should be on that list too!!! Oh well, I don't see myself going there any time soon anyways.

 

[Isaac-1]

It may be that the reciprocity paperwork has not went through yet, there was one of those situaitons with my state and I think NM where in theory they met the requirements, but took something like 18 months to return the official paperwork to my state to be added to the list.

 

[Vermonter]

Large dog as co-pilot. Worked for my when visiting NYC and I got lost. Found myself in a very sketchy area after dark. Rolled DOWN my rear tinted windows so the scumbags eyeing my shiny SUV could see the German Shepherd in back.

 

[sidheshooter]

^^^I love all this self-defense stuff; I was doing martial arts by age 12 and shooting years before that. I like guns and gun forums. I don't like road ragers and bullies.

But I'm going to be the contrarian (for the moment) and say "smart phone and prior planning with a map". There is no problem presented by this 'rager guy that wouldn't be better solved by driving straight to the cop station after the two roundabouts and several turns of flashing light behavior than by any stick, cane, spray, EDC folder, rolled up magazine or maglight.

By not going straight for the easy out, he got run off the road and put into a situation where we are now seriously talking about getting out of a car to go Mano-a-Mano with some idiot.

Not the best play, IMHO.

Out of curiosity, what *did* he do? Since he was around to tell the story, it must have worked out.

 

[Isaac-1]

It depends on the area, several years ago a friend of mine was in New Orleans and got lost late at night (took an exit off the elevated freeway where there was no return ramp), found themselves in a bad part of town being followed by a group less than reputable looking young men, saw a police car, tried to flag it down, the police would not stop, followed the police to their station where they quickly entered a solid looking metal door, and would not open it while my friend was outside beating on the the door. Thankfully the young locals left after circling the police station for a few minutes.

 

[JustinJ]

Large dog as co-pilot. Worked for my when visiting NYC and I got lost. Found myself in a very sketchy area after dark. Rolled DOWN my rear tinted windows so the scumbags eyeing my shiny SUV could see the German Shepherd in back.

I think thats a great practice when possible but in the central TX summers I can't make any stops with Samson in the car. During winter time he gets to slobber my windows more often.

 

[newbuckeye]

I drive a semi, and have to leave my CCW at home. I got to states (NJ, NY) that don't permit CCW but I have a female black lab that keeps most of the critters away and my company forbids CCW as does most of the places we go.. One thing for your friend to consider is Hijacking. I'm not sure what kind of company he drives for, but trucks get hijacked A LOT! If that happened to me, I would have been on 911 like I was being hijacked, because it is very possible.

 

[bikerdoc]

Interesting scenario that I will have to think about and formulate a plan, thanks.

911 is a definate, and I do know road rage is taken serious here in VA. beyound that, im not sure.

I know I wouldnt get out of the truck or react unless he showed a weapon or broke the window.

Got to think about this one. Overreation could get me in trouble, underreation could get me hurt, or dead.

 

[xXxplosive]

The dog is a good suggestion......IMO.
Years back was comming home from dropping off a date at about 2:00AM. had my dog in my 4WD with me on the front seat and he was asleep. Stopped at a light with no one around...suddenly out of the dsrk there's a guy pulling on my front side passenger door handle trying to pull the door off my vehicle.............my Shepard was black and tan.....when I gave him the command alls this guy saw was flashing teeth and spit right in his face.......he immediately turned and ran......I always reflect back on that asking the question.....what if the door was unlocked ? Geeeezzzz.

 

[sidheshooter]

It depends on the area, several years ago a friend of mine was in New Orleans and got lost late at night (took an exit off the elevated freeway where there was no return ramp), found themselves in a bad part of town being followed by a group less than reputable looking young men, saw a police car, tried to flag it down, the police would not stop, followed the police to their station where they quickly entered a solid looking metal door, and would not open it while my friend was outside beating on the the door. Thankfully the young locals left after circling the police station for a few minutes.

Wow. As if any of us needed one more reason to love the 2A, but there it is. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't try driving to the cop shop first and foremost, as previously mentioned above, but this story does underscore court decisions up to and including SCOTUS regarding police duty to protect individuals.

 

[PowerG]

How did this situation end?

If possible I would attempt to drive away while he is out of his vehicle, and call 911. If driving away is not an option, and the other driver is acting as described, I would be in self-defense mode with whatever means I had.

 

[WilleRupert]

A road rage situation is a losing proposition for both parties. When you're carrying you don't have the luxury of getting into shouting and shoving matches with some random jerk on the street. It's on you to avoid conflict.

 

[PastorAaron]

He ended up just freezing in the car and waiting the guy out. It REALLY shook him up. Do you think it would be wrong to present a weapon at this juncture? Pepper spray (devils advocate, I know)?
Also: Think food delivery, not load delivery. He's doing about the most dangerous job I can think of outside of service/law enforcement. This is the second time this sort of thing happened to him in as many weeks. He currently carries NOTHING for sd. Not even spray or a stick...I'm hoping to change that.

 

[aeriedad]

He ended up just freezing in the car and waiting the guy out. It REALLY shook him up. Do you think it would be wrong to present a weapon at this juncture? Pepper spray (devils advocate, I know)?
Also: Think food delivery, not load delivery. He's doing about the most dangerous job I can think of outside of service/law enforcement. This is the second time this sort of thing happened to him in as many weeks. He currently carries NOTHING for sd. Not even spray or a stick...I'm hoping to change that.

Pastor Aaron,
Your friend needs something for SD, and it's apparent that you know that. Have you taken him shooting, just for fun? Maybe a little experience with firearms will convince him they are a reasonable self defense option.

To answer your question, it's hard to say when to present a weapon through hearsay like this. If his personal safety is threatened, he should be prepared to meet force with force. As far as what point that becomes necessary, only the person threatened can really make that call. If it comes to a court case, lawyers and judges will talk to the jury about the "reasonable person" standard. I am not a lawyer, so this is just the opinion of a regular person. Others with legal qualifications and expertise here may offer better advice.

 

[Owen Sparks]

As I understand it law enforcement is not nearly as dangerous as some other jobs. I recently read some statistics on the odds of being murdered at work and taxi drivers, late shift motel clerks, liquor store employees and convienience store clerks are much more likely to be murdered on the job than a policeman.

 

[PastorAaron]

I laid out some of his options including a cane etc. He's ex military, but also carries a felony conviction. I'm still working with him on a reasonable plan.
Not looking for legal advice, just what your gut says. If someone was moving toward me in that kind of manner, it would be difficult not to draw my ccw...

 

[PowerG]

Agreed, it's going to be a judgement call that nobody else can make. Every circumstance is different, and body language or other sometimes subtle behavior can change the whole context of an encounter. I had a situation one night many years ago when I had to draw on a guy who was in the process of apologizing for an earlier confrontation that he initiated because of the way he was holding his hand, turns out he had a knife in it.

The felony conviction changes the whole playing field for your friend. Defending himself from within a vehicle will be more difficult without a firearm, and getting out with an impact weapon might escalate the situation; it will almost certainly be seen by law enforcement as doing so.

Not being there to see the incident, don't know, but was your friend driving over-aggressively? IMO he made a mistake by not reporting the incident, if someone ran me off the road I would consider that to be a serious assault and treat it as such.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Large dog as co-pilot. Worked for my when visiting NYC and I got lost. Found myself in a very sketchy area after dark. Rolled DOWN my rear tinted windows so the scumbags eyeing my shiny SUV could see the German Shepherd in back.

You really think a delivery driver can just have his dog with him on the job and in the car on runs?

 

[ball3006]

That is what you get when you have a NY Giants bumper sticker on your car when you drive in Green Bay..............chris3