"Original" Garand?

[PhilA]

I've been reading the HECK out of the forums here, there and everywhere about Garands, and what various people look for in them. I'm absolutely smitten over the notion of owning a piece of American history.

What I don't understand is how some places can say "We replaced the stock, put in a new barrel, reparkerized, reblued...so you can have a true M1 Garand."

Now, to my line of thinking, a new stock and a new barrel is pretty much a NEW GUN. Yeah, maybe the bolt and receiver are original, but hell...I'm not interested in a Garand where 80% of its parts were made last year.

So I guess what I'm asking is, are there any places outside of CMP where I can look for nice WWII or Korean War era ORIGINAL correct grade Garands?

 

[GRIZ22]

So I guess what I'm asking is, are there any places outside of CMP where I can look for nice WWII or Korean War era ORIGINAL correct grade Garands?

Yes you can look other places but you need to be aware of what you're looking at.

 

[TexasRifleman]

So I guess what I'm asking is, are there any places outside of CMP where I can look for nice WWII or Korean War era ORIGINAL correct grade Garands?

You are not likely to get one there either.

For a genuine seriously nice correct WWII Garand you are going to spend a LOT of money.
By nice I assume you mean one that LOOKS nice as well as has the correct pieces of metal and wood but has not been worked over.

$3000 maybe? Haven't tracked them recently but the last really "nice" one I saw sold for around that.

 

[MutinousDoug]

A membership in the Garand Collectors Association may be a good starting place to begin to learn what an original (as built) Garand looks like. Books such as Scott Duff's work are a good reference. Otherwise, you are on your own.

 

[PhilA]

Hmm. That much, eh? Damn, that's pretty steep.

From what I've read, if I get a Service Grade there's a good chance it'll be in BETTER shape than a Correct Grade?

I don't need it to be a showpiece. I'm going to shoot it. I just don't want brand new parts that have no historical significance.

 

[Horsemany]

You have realized something about Garand collecting. Garands are immune from the standard rules of gun collecting. Garand collectors who despise places like Mitchell's Mausers for refinishing guns before sale, have no problem opening the checkbook for a CMP garand that's been totally rebuilt. This is because of a number of reasons and it's been puzzling me for a while now. I've been wanting a Garand for about a year but it seems to be another hobby all together. There is more to know about Garands than any other type of gun I've collected. Don't plan on finding any original guns. CMP correct grades are the best bet right now IMO. CMP is the next best thing to buying from the government with full documentation.

By the way I am not defending Mitchells Mausers I just don't see much of a difference.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Garand collectors who despise places like Mitchell's Mausers for refinishing guns before sale, have no problem opening the checkbook for a CMP garand that's been totally rebuilt.

No one despises the guns, we despise Mitchell's for the dishonest way they sold those rifles in the past. BIG difference.

I don't remember CMP selling Chinese made Garands marketed as having come ashore on 6June44.

There are plenty of scumbag Garand salesmen out there as well but CMP isn't one of them.

Has nothing to do with the rifle.

 

[highorder]

Almost every M1 Rifle out there, save for a few rare specimens, were fighting rifles in WWII and Korea. They were rebuilt, some several times in the last 70 years. The result is called a mixmaster.

Don't hesitate for a moment when purchasing a mixmaster from the CMP, or other places.

The rifles made by Century Arms International (CAI) are to be avoided in general. They are built using surplus GI parts, some of which are worn out. They also use a new cast receiver that most consider inferior to a forged 8620 steel GI receiver.

The new rifles from Springfield Armory (the private company in Illinois, not the defunct government arsenal in Massachusetts) are also built with GI parts and new cast receivers. The quality of these rifles is better than the CAI specimens, but the $1300.00 MSRP is a joke and near-insult.

A GI rifle from the CMP is the best choice with the best price.

 

[Horsemany]

Texasrifleman

I don't think people despise the Mitchells Mausers, but you can bet most would consider them worth less than one that hadn't been refinished. But a refinished Garand from CMP is not looked at as worth less money than one that's been "worn". If it's better to leave guns original than why doesn't that rule apply to Garands from CMP? I'm just curious since I've been a Winchester collector for a while now and most people will turn up their nose at even a hint of a touch up on an old Winchester. It seems the most basic rules of collecting don't apply to Garands.

 

[TexasRifleman]

But a refinished Garand from CMP is not looked at as worth less money than one that's been "worn".

CMP does not refinish their rifles.

Each M1 Garand rifle sold by CMP is an authentic U.S. Government rifle that has been inspected, headspaced, repaired if necessary and test fired for function.

That's all. No repark, staining of wood, nothing. Mechanical and safety stuff only.

 

[Horsemany]

Well if that's true I stand corrected. I just saw a thread on another forum that had pictures of a correct grade that the new owner thought had been reparked. I thought I'd heard of other guns from CMP being reparked. If they don't do any refinishing they sure as &*&% put correct grades together from pieces parts. That I'm certain of. And that would be unacceptable when collecting any other type of gun that I'm aware of.

Doesn't CMP even add cartouches?

I'd like to add that I don't have a problem with whatever CMP does. I'd love to have a correct grade myself. I'm simply saying the basic rules of originality don't seem to apply to Garands.

 

[TexasRifleman]

If they don't do any refinishing they sure as &*&% put correct grades together from pieces parts. That I'm certain of. And that would be unacceptable when collecting any other type of gun that I'm aware of.

Certainly they assemble rifles from parts, as did the US Army depot. Depending on the grade you buy from CMP you will get the "correct" parts that would have been used when the rifle was built or rebuilt during it's service life. That might include a reparked trigger group, receiver, barrel etc. What happens sometimes is they will get a barrel for example that has an absolutely perfect finish and it looks re-done. Luck of the draw basically.

And that would be unacceptable when collecting any other type of gun that I'm aware of.

Not if that was how the gun was originally used in service. Garand parts were not serialized to have "matching numbers".

If a Garand was rebuilt in 1942 by a depot, then used to come ashore on 6June1944 I assure you it is collectible whether or not all the parts came from SA or H&R.

In the Garand you are not looking for, nor will you find, a "factory new" rifle. Oh maybe in the $10,000 range perhaps but I'm not sure you'd even want one. I wouldn't.

What you want is a rifle that is "proper" or "correct" for the date of manufacture. Whether that date falls in a time when the US was in some kind of conflict can impact the price certainly.

All Garands were made by the US. There is no Australian Garand, no British Garand like with the Mausers. Germany licensed those things to many countries some of which were never even involved in WWII. It's simply not the same thing.

 

[Nugilum]

The CMP had a "Special Grade" about a year ago that was basically a rebuilt Garand. They took a Garand and stripped it, reparkerized it, and replaced the barrel and stock. I got one of these bad boys, and they are better than new. It's a rifle with newly refinished parts on a WWII forged receiver.

Except for the "Special", the CMP doesn't perform any refinishing to the rifles.

 

[Horsemany]

I suppose you've answered the question. The practice of mixing parts is now acceptable to collectors because that was how they did it during its' service life. I've been told stories from guys who carried Garands about cleaning all the guns in 55 gal. drums. He thought it would be a miracle to retain the original parts they way they got mixed up in the drum. It makes sense to me now. Thanks.

 

[Z71]

My M1 carbine is a true mix-master, having parts from about all the carbine makers on it. My M1 rifle is pretty much all later model Springfield metal(except a Winchester buttplate), and the stock I believe is wartime Springfield. My 1903 Rock Island is about as mixed up as my M1 Carbine, wearing pieces from several makers, and an 03A3 stock.

I never quite understood the guy's that swap parts around until they have all "correct" parts on the US rifles. Honestly, the armies using these things didn't much give a hoot if the peices were all made in the same factory or not!

I would think a fellow swapping peices around on some other collectable milsurp might be accused of "boosting" the gun, but for some reason or other that practice seems to be acceptable on US rifles?

I don't really care myself, I'm just a shooter. I replace any parts I think need replaced for repair, and don't worry too much about who made what and when.

I take about the same attitude as the US Army, I just want it to work reliably and accurately and look decent.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The practice of mixing parts is now acceptable to collectors because that was how they did it during its' service life.

Pretty much. So yes that would normally be unacceptable but since we're talking about a military rifle and that's how the military used them it makes it OK.

There is enough data to be able to know how a depot would have built or rebuilt the gun to tell if one is "correctly" put together.

He thought it would be a miracle to retain the original parts they way they got mixed up in the drum.

And he was right

 

[Gator]

Doesn't CMP even add cartouches?

If you mean period correct inspectors marks, no they do not...and they never have. They do put their own "CMP" stamp on the after market stocks (Boyd's) they sell, but it would never be mistaken for a real inspectors mark.

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the CMP. The CMP is a "straight shooting" organization, they tell you exactly what you are getting and stand behind it if anything is wrong. I have got over two dozen rifles from them and have never been disappointed; and every one of them is worth substantially more now than when I bought it.

PhilA, check out Scott Duff's website for nice collector grade Garands.

 

[Swampy]

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the CMP. The CMP is a "straight shooting" organization, they tell you exactly what you are getting and stand behind it if anything is wrong. I have got over two dozen rifles from them and have never been disappointed; and every one of them is worth substantially more now than when I bought it.

Ditto...... many times.

Swampy

Garands forever

 

[Horsemany]

I didn't suggest CMP was trying to fool anyone with their stamp. I was simply pointing out another thing that seems perfectly acceptable to do to a Garand but not any other milsurp. How well would we accept a Mitchells Mauser with a big ole stamp of their's on it? I am in no way condemming CMP. I am just seeing a double standard here.

 

[TexasRifleman]

How well would we accept a Mitchells Mauser with a big ole stamp of their's on it? I am in no way condemming CMP. I am just seeing a double standard here.

It's been pointed out several times that CMP doesn't stamp or modify their rifles in any way but you keep comparing them to Mitchells who do this all the time.

CMP stamps reproduction stocks for the VERY reason that it makes it easier to identify a fake, not to make it look "genuine".

 

[dmftoy1]

I think the distinction between CMP and "Collector" is that CMP is there to foster actually shooting the things. If you get one that's "collectible" then it's a bonus and they'll try to get you a WWII receiver if you ask . . .but they're more interested in you getting out and shooting it than in providing you with a collector's item. They DO have special auctions and "correct" grades, but the idea is to collect more $ for them to sponsor more SHOOTING!

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[M29]

what is CMP?

 

[TexasRifleman]

what is CMP?

Congress wants YOU to have a Garand, you didn't know that?

It's your civic duty to get one soon.....

http://www.odcmp.com/

Civilian Marksmanship Program. From their website:

The CMP was created by the U.S. Congress. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve the U.S. military. Over the years the emphasis of the program shifted to focus on youth development through marksmanship. From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (TITLE XVI) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety, Inc. (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP. The CPRPFS is a tax exempt not-for-profit 501(c)(3) organization that derives its mission from public law.

 

[Horsemany]

Texasrifleman

I am only using Mitchells as an example because they are truely despised (as they should be) by gun collectors for a number of reasons. If it makes you feel better I'll use Samco as an example next time. I don't even care that CMP stamps anything. I am simply pointing out the distinction. By the way Mausers typically had their bolts swapped during WWII being rearsenaled or captured but if you are trying to sell a K98 with a mismatched bolt it isn't worth as much as a matching gun. Do you see a difference between how a non original Garand is thought of compared to milsurps from any other country? I remind you I do not have a problem with this, I am simply pointing it out.

 

[TexasRifleman]

By the way Mausers typically had their bolts swapped during WWII being rearsenaled or captured but if you are trying to sell a K98 with a mismatched bolt it isn't worth as much as a matching gun. Do you see a difference between how a non original Garand is thought of compared to milsurps from any other country? I remind you I do not have a problem with this, I am simply pointing it out.

And how do you know if a K98 bolt is mismatched?

A Garand that is "correct" grade is not worth as much as the real deal Holyfield either.

Go check out some "Original" Garands here and see....

http://www.scott-duff.com/M1Garand.htm

What you are arguing doesn't happen with Garands in fact DOES happen, you just have to know what you are looking for.

A "correct" grade from CMP is worth a grand, a "real original" sells for $4000-5000 in some cases.

The difference is the level of originality that you want to define. That's why CMP sells theirs as "correct" and not "original".

So the difference you talk about in Mausers exists in Garands as well, it's a huge price gap.