our rights can not be our base

[buster94]

We need to get people to realize that; being free is worth dying for, that we are patriots who want freedom for all, that we are productive members of society who want our country to flourish.[/QUOTE]

I think this thought will do nothing for our cause and belief. The reason I believe that is because people as a whole believe the children that just died are gone because of our freedoms and beliefs. That is why people as a whole think we might as well have pulled the trigger ourselves. People associate us with the nut job shooter because they think the freedoms we support are what put the gun in the hands of the shooter. This is why people think we need gun control. This is why people agree we don't need high capacity magazines.
Of course I know this is not true but THIS is what the many believe. THIS is why many think we are nut jobs. They do not know how many lives are saved by guns, they only know what they have just seen. Nobody can accept children dieing as the heartfelt pain is to much to ignore. No matter what you say, you cannot talk away that pain by talking about your gun rights.
The only way to counter this is to show facts about the lives saved by gun owners. Our rights did not save these kids but our rights have saved many lives and that is the base we need to fight this on.
I hate to say it but big steps will be taken for the end run on this one.

 

[Sam1911]

We need to attack this conflict on ALL fronts. Emotion fades. Grief abates. Anger eventually passes and gives way to sober thought.

In the end it is STILL, NOW, and ALWAYS about the RIGHT to BEAR ARMS. Freedom isn't safe and sometimes terrible things happen that we may pretend wouldn't have happened if we had no freedom. But that's false and cowardly logic.

Of course we need to point out all of the practical reasons why gun control measures are wrong-headed and counterproductive. But don't EVER lose sight of or refuse to hold supreme the importance of our basic human right, enumerated in the 2nd Amendment.

 

[DeMilled]

I think we should acknowledge that a shooting at a school where children die is going to be a whole different conversation about guns/gun rights then when a criminal is killed inside the victims home.

The loss of life, when it is kids, is entirely different to everyone and is in-approachable; you simply cannot get anti-gun folks to see that the item they blame for the dead kids is not only acceptable but necessary for our Republic remain free for future generations.

Telling anyone that the item that caused soo much pain is just fine in responsible hands is a non-starter.

I'm not trying to be an arse but we all know that when politicians tell the populace laws are needed "To protect the kids." they usually get their way.
In this case, where children where chewed up by a semi-auto rifle, it is an even larger emotional response. He put 11 bullets into one of them and I guarantee you are going to hear that fact repeated quite a lot in the coming weeks.

We need to open their eyes to the fact that the gun was the tool used, but it was not what caused the violence.


I strongly think a winning strategy is to educate the public and politicians that in most all of the cases (certainly all the imfamouse ones)where a school is attacked and kids killed it was by a young person with a history of taking medication that is known to cause the following symptoms.
*I know the meds. do not effect everyone in this way but it affects enough that it is a known problem, the kids that are most at risk of these are easily identifiable and parents can be educated on the warning signs I.E. what to watch for. This stuff was meant for adults and it is being mis-prescribed to children *

Manic Reaction (Mania, e.g., Kleptomania, Pyromania, Dipsomania, Nymphomania)
Hypomania (e.g., poor judgment, over spending, impulsivity, etc.)
Abnormal Thinking
Hallucinations
Personality Disorder
Amnesia
Agitation
Psychosis
Abnormal Dreams
Emotional Lability (Or Instability)
Alcohol Abuse and/or Craving
Hostility
Paranoid Reactions
Confusion
Delusions
Sleep Disorders
Akathisia (Severe Inner Restlessness)
Discontinuation (Withdrawal) Syndrome
Impulsivity


http://www.ssristories.com/index.html#FromIndex

If you read a few of the articles published by doctors, look at the history of the shooters medications, look at all the attacks by young people that did not involve so many deaths the connection is clear.

There have been calls in the past for Congress to investigate and the failure to investigate and educate the population about the dangers of the medications is, in my mind, a huge failure on the part of the same people calling for new gun laws.

We need to get everyone talking about this and make enough noise so that the parents of kids will know what the actual cause of this danger to their kids is.

This is not new information either.
We can use current youtube videos to start education people on the history of the problem and get new ones put online laying out the connection to this latest tragedy.

There are soo many people right now trying to understand why this, and all other school shootings, has happened that I think they will listen.


Let's show everyone what's broken with the mental health system and how medications are involved in these shooting. Light a fire under the arses of politicians that look the other way because big pharma money is involved and bust these fuggers out for not saving those kids lives by allowing this problem to go on for way too many years.

 

[DesertVet]

...

 

[Texan Scott]

Buster94, you used your FOURTH post on THR to suggest we argue for the right to keep and bear arms on the basis of something other than the RIGHT to keep and bear arms???

SHENANIGANS. Go home, buster.

 

[k_dawg]

Consider this: The price of justice is that we allow some criminals to walk free. And they may go and do bad things. The dividing line shifts back and forth. But we never simply say "do away with the 4th amendment" when something like this happens. Why not?

Justice and Liberty is not always the 'safest' course.

 

[barnbwt]

SHENANIGANS. Go home, buster.

Troll or simply emotionally conflicted gunowner, he at least makes a fairly well written depiciton of his argument--lots better than many of the incoherent responses on both sides these last few days; let's give him a chance and talk about the merits of his argument

Our rights did not save these kids but our rights have saved many lives and that is the base we need to fight this on.

Precisely. Our rights could not save these kids because they were stripped from everyone on the premises. Had carry by the staff been permitted or even encouraged, the dead would have stood a far better chance than they did cowering in a closet, at the mercy of a madman who ultimately ended his own life. Pandora's box has been opened; guns are here to stay, even semi-autos. Any ban or prohibition at this point would serve only to enrich and empower those who do not follow the laws of man.

Even our own President effectively said shortly after the attack that we brought this upon ourselves with our sickening "freedom" to possess weapons. We have come to a truly dangerous place, where leaders at the highest echelons of our nation have no intention of following the basic principles set out in our founding documents. We are a Constitutional Republic.

But we never simply say "do away with the 4th amendment" when something like this happens.

1st Amendment was trampled during WWII
2nd Amendment has been trampled on almost constantly since the Founding
4th Amendment was trampled on during most all tumultuous times in American history (most recently since 9/11)
6th Amendment was trampled when foriegn-born American Citizens were forced into internment camps during WWII
8th Amendment (as it pertains to us) was trampled when excessive levies on ammunition and guns have been implemented in the past
9th and 10th Amendments have been neutered so as to be basically useless by the granting of both State and Personal unenumerated powers to the Federal Government

there are other examples for all other amendments, these are the most obvious off the top of my head. I'm no scholar, so if my interpretations are incorrect, please correct me. All our rights must be defended vigorously, but the 2nd seems to be the most consistently misunderstood by those who choose not to excercise it.

TCB

 

[hso]

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