overkill and ethical hunting?

[SpeedAKL]

What do you consider as overkill on an animal, and do you care? I was having a discussion with some friends who shy away from higher-powered rifles for deer hunting not because of recoil or their ability to shoot them well but because they think that a .270, .30-06, .308, 7mm-08, etc etc, or even a 7.62x39 or .25-06 takes too much meat and is inhumane and excessive (they have a "take-only-what-you-really-need" philosophy, and they hunt for meat, not sport). They won't let me go out with a .30-06 or 7.62x54R for this reason. I don't particularly have a problem with hitting a deer with a strong all-round caliber like a .30-06 or 54R so long as the hunter can accurately place an effective shot.

Your thoughts?

Edit: I guess the better overall question is, do you lean more towards the "use only what is really necessary" or "it's OK to use what you want so long as you can handle the recoil/blast/etc and still make a humane kill?"

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

your friends won't let you deer hunt with an '06 or 7.62X54R? Get new friends

 

[Deer Hunter]

Use what kills them. If your "freinds" wont let you hunt with YOUR rifle, then tell them to hit the road. Find a new place to hunt. Personally, I don't think you can ever have "too much" gun when hunting. It's the Indian, and not the Arrow.

 

[MCgunner]

What do they hunt with, .22s???? Sheesh, I sorta think of 7 or 300 mag when I think "too much" and "meat damage", but hey, so long as the deer is down ASAP, and GOD KNOWS the 7 will put it down ASAP, so what? Eat what you don't screw up and shoot 'em in the ribs behind the shoulder to minimize damage. They'll go down and who cares about a little rib meat?

I don't get that much meat damage from my .308 load, Nosler 150 BTs and it kills 'em dead. I've killed a lot of deer with the .257 Roberts, same deal. I don't need no belted magnum, but hey, I want more than a .22 mag.

 

[eliphalet]

None of the calibers listed will cause meat loss if the deer is shot correctly. I deer hunt with a 30-06 and I am a meat hunter. If my shot is placed right it will not ruin a pound of meat. I see nothing wrong with as fast a kill as possible and no reason to destroy meat in the process.
I would advise better informed hunting friends.

A deer shot with a 223 with the wrong bullet in the wrong area will cause much more meat damage than shot with a 375 H&H hit right.

 

[R.W.Dale]

In my mind if someone mentions Ethics and Hunting in the same post what they really mean is "Everybody should be required to hunt as I do"


BTW You hunt with a bunch of weird-o's

 

[.41 magnum man]

Would I be correct in guessing your philosophical friends are teenagers?

Humane killing and meat loss isn't even in the same category. Dead is dead. Making them dead with the least amount of suffereing is humane. Obliterating them with something like a bazooka, grenade or land mine comes under the category of "Waste." Don't pay those guys any attention, they don't understand what they are talking about. I classify people like that under "Mind over Matter." I don't mind what they say, cause it don't matter!

 

[Pigspitter]

your friends won't let you deer hunt with an '06 or 7.62X54R? Get new friends

I would be a little suspicious that your friends aren't Germans who are still a little bitter about getting whupped on by those calibers back in WWI and WWII

 

[SpeedAKL]

41 magnum: they're college students, so close enough

 

[Art Eatman]

Assuming Bang, Whop, DRT, there's no such thing as overkill or underkill. Dead is dead.

The only way to ruin meat is to shoot meat instead of the proper kill zone. Hams, shoulders, backstraps and tenders ain't proper kill zone hits.

SFAIK, some folks get all excited and forget what they're supposed to do, which is aim at a specific point on Bambi. They just sorta point at the middle of the brown, yank the trigger, and hope something good happens.

If you ruin Bambi's neck, it doesn't matter if you use a minimum cartridge or a .300 RUM or equivalent. If you center punch the heart/lungs, it doesn't matter if it's a little cartridge or a big cartridge, low velocity or high velocity.

And if you hit a deer or elk in a ham, most any cartridge of whatever size is gonna ruin meat. God didn't put a butt on a buck for an idjit to shoot at.

 

[birdbustr]

Tell your friends that the most humane way would be to jump out of trees with Bowie knives. See if they would do that.

What are these guys "ethical ways"? Are they using spears or something to give the deer more of a chance?

It sounds like these guys watch too much Tred Barta. At least he doesn't try to push his crazy ways on everyone else. Tred Barta even admits that his ways aren't the best ways to do things.

 

[86thecat]

Hunt with a medium bore Weatherby, put the shot behind the shoulder and ask them to show you all of the ruined meat. You may need some new hunting buddies.

 

[stan in sc]

Hunt with a 45/70.It kills and does not blood shoot a lot of meat.Like it is said about 45/70,you can eat right up to the hjole.

 

[qajaq59]

What you have there are acquaintances, NOT friends. Friends don't tell you that you must do it their way or take the highway. Go find someone else to hunt with.

 

[Kingcreek]

Overkill is when the animal is shot dead AND reincarnated before it hits the ground.
Art is right, dead is dead.

 

[mbt2001]

These "friends" sound like ignorant judgmental elitists...

Also, I hate the word "humane" when it comes to hunting. People are always throwing it around. Let me say this, the word HUMANE cannot be used in any conjunction with game animals or animals. Example, my Dog eats more regularly, eats better and gets better healthcare than 1/3 of the world. That is a sad fact. The word HUMANE is crap. We treat each other like sh$t. If we treated animals "HUMANELY" we would bomb them, throw them in prision and search their pockets.... I hope I am never treated humanely, which is to say horribly.

Stepping off soapbox now...

 

[cracked butt]

Shot placement matters much more than the cartridge if you don't want to ruin meat. A well paced heart shot behind the front shoulder with a .50 bmg will waste far less meat than a .243 through the front shoulder.

 

[retrieverman]

This is the silliest thing that I have heard in a while.

SpeedAKL, you haven't mentioned what calibers your so-called friends are using that is so much more "humane" than your '06. Like others have said, I would find somewhere else to hunt and some new friends.

 

[ArmedBear]

Inhumane and unethical?

I think that using a cheap scope that won't hold zero, a junk rifle that doesn't shoot accurately at the range in question, or an insufficient cartridge for the game, can certainly be considered inhumane and unethical.

Sometimes, that can sound "elitist", but I couldn't care less. I think you owe the animal equipment that is up to the task. It needn't be fancy or expensive, but "all I have is a .223" is no excuse for hunting elk with it, and if you know a gun is good for 6 MOA from the bench on a good day, it's unethical to use it on deer at 200 yards offhand.

But a .30-06? What's unethical about that? It's an accurate cartridge, shoots pretty flat, and makes for a clean kill.

 

[renriq02]

it can go the other way....

shoot the deer with a smaller caliber..and the deer will probably live for another few hours before it drops dead.

THAT'S INHUMANE!

imagine running around like a chicken that got his head cut off.
bleeding to death......and running around waiting to die.

 

[SpeedAKL]

The calibers they are using are .243 and shotguns

 

[ArmedBear]

Well, deer size/weight and hunting ranges vary from place to place, so it's hard to really generalize about calibers, except to say that the rounds you listed are probably the most common deer calibers in North America, and have been for many years.

Some experienced hunters consider the .243 to be borderline (i.e. inhumane/unethical) for deer, at least good-sized ones. That comes from their experience with light bullets. Having to shoot the deer several times despite acceptable shot placement is hardly humane.

Buckshot or slugs? It's hard to see how buckshot would ruin less meat than an effective one-shot kill with a 7mm-08, .30-06, etc. And slugs are big. Big means a big shockwave from the entry hole, i.e. bloodshot meat around it. And range is limited due to limited accuracy.

It's really hard to see where these guys get their opinions, and why these opinions are so strongly held, but I'd guess that the answer to both questions contains a 7-letter slang word for "rectal orifice."

Ditch these idiots, IMO.

 

[41magsnub]

It's not humane unless the critter explodes in a fine red mist upon impact of the round. That way you know they didn't feel anything. As a bonus you don't have to dress an animal!

Seriously though, humane in my mind is doing whatever it is you need to do to make it a quick and as painless as possible kill. Usually that is a mix of shot placement (meaning knowing how to shoot and the limitations of you and your rifle/ammo) as well as proper caliber.

Also, part of humane is using enough gun so that if you flinch, get a bad gust of wind, slip, or whatever and the round is not perfectly placed it still should kill the animal. That said, a truly horrible shot say in the gut will end badly no matter how much gun was used. Example, somebody might consider it ethical to hunt deer with a .22 because they are a great shot, but what if they miss slightly such as not getting a perfect head shot but instead hit low and punch a hole it it's neck and it runs off? Similar to the guy who only takes 1 round hunting because he never misses. Then at a 300 yard shot he slips and tags a critter in a front leg. Doh.. no second shot and a critter can go for a long ways and time with a leg shot. There needs to be a margin for error.

Agree with the .30-06, that will kill pretty much anything if using the proper load and placed correctly. That can be said about any round.

As far as overkill? There is a point at which the gun used would be ridiculous such as hunting a squirrel with .338. But, even if there is too much gun if the shot is placed right and the proper load is used the wasted meat would be acceptable. but, I would rather waste meat than wound a deer and have it run off and die in a ditch somewhere just to rot after days or weeks of suffering due to it's injuries.

 

[ArmedBear]

Note also that the .30-06 is probably the cartridge with the widest variety of available factory loads, and the widest variety of proven handload formulas.

In .30-06 brass, you can put a slow or fast, light or heavy load. ".30-06" by itself means almost nothing, when bullet weights range from 110 grains to 220 grains, and velocities from 2000 fps to over 3000.

A 520 grain .45-70 works quite well on jackrabbit. Getting the elevation just right is a challenge, though.

 

[springmom]

Did I read that right? They won't "let you" hunt with a .30-06??????

Now mind you, I hunt deer with a .243 (guess that would be an approved cartridge for your friends ) but I do it because I am not terribly fond of recoil on my weenie little shoulders AND, more importantly, because it's an extremely accurate gun with good ammo.

But so is my husband's .30-06. I don't understand their objection, honestly. If you blow the lungs and heart to bits, you haven't messed up anything that you can easily eat anyway. A good lung shot will even allow you to keep the liver (assuming you have ice upon which to store it). What's the problem?

Springmom