+P bulk FMJs?

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Wapato

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So I'm considering getting a new handgun for home defense (over my inherated .357 mag revolver).

The variety of weights and pressures availible seemed to give a lot of flexibility to modern calibers.

However while poking around stats I noticed some companies only seemed to be selling expensive hollow points in those loadings.

Now, I don't mind spending a lot for the bullets I might be defending my life with.

However after some trial rounds to ensure there aren't problems with feeding them, I'd want to practice on cheaper rounds matched for recoil and ballistics.

I figured that would be trivial, especially for cartridges where there's space in the case for more powder as opposed to ones needing specialty powders to get higher pressures.

But as far as I can tell +P bulk training rounds just plain don't exist. I'm hoping one of you knows something I don't.

Or are you just spending a Lincoln every clip of double stack +P 45ACP you shoot, limiting yourself to standard weights and pressures, or shooting one thing but carrying another?
 
A .45 does not need +P to be a very effective weapon.
It's big heavy plodding bullet will put Attila the Hun on his butt at standard pressure & velocity.

It was designed to replace the .45 Colt in military service, and at the time, one of the requirements was to stop cavalry horses!

It's advantage over the last 100 years is low recoil, and less muzzle blast, which make very fast follow-up shots possible.

If you want higher velocity with a lighter bullet at +P pressure, get a 9mm or .40 S&W.

rc
 
I have not seen any +P ball ammo.

Speer makes their Lawman line of training ammo to mimic the recoil of their Gold Dot line-up. Standard pressure only, I believe.
 
There is not enough significant difference between standard pressure ammo and +P ammo in point of impact or recoil that makes it necessary or desirable to practice with +P. An inch or two difference at 50 yds isn't going to change the outcome in self defense shooting that generally occur at much shorter range.
 
9mm+P FMJ ammo is called NATO 9x19
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NATO is right near the +P pressure, but not quite above it, I would recommend it as "close enough" if the thread was about 9x19 +P practice loads ... but the OP is looking for a +P load in .45acp ball.

Wapato, run some of your carry ammo through, and then run some ball ... the difference isn't that much, and some ball loadings are a bit hotter than others (for example, winchester/federal tends to be a little light, while euro loadings tend to be a little hotter)

If you MUST have a +P load, look into an outfit like Georgia Arms for a big batch of their cheapest HP round in a +P load ... but I really don't think you need to practice with a perfect replication of your carry load every time or even particularly often.
 
So it sounds like most people just shoot standard pressure ball and figure a +P round will be similar enough in recoil and point of impact that your bill drill isn't doing to change perceptively.

Although if that were the case it seems odd that others act like the 45 has so much more recoil than the 9mm.

bigfatdave said:
NATO is right near the +P pressure, but not quite above it, I would recommend it as "close enough" if the thread was about 9x19 +P practice loads ... but the OP is looking for a +P load in .45acp ball.
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Well, that was just an example, but I'm still shopping around and haven't settled on a cartridge/gun yet.

But the +P issue seemed to apply across the board. It seems even worse for 9mm as it sounds like the +P loads are what is encouraged as the "standard" in defensive loads.
 
I've been buying euro manufactured 9mmP whenever I can because it's loaded hotter.

My problem is I have a UZI and it just doesn't work well with most of the American made ammo, which is just too weak to get it to cycle well.

I suspect that the reason the USA manufactured ammo is loaded weak is they assume that everyone is going to be stuffing these though their 100 year old Lugers and WWII slave labor sabotaged Browning High Powers.

Brands I can recommend as being hot are the aforementioned S&B, Geco, and Ruag. They are priced out here: http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=9mm+Luger

Not the cheapest but if you're looking for hotter ammo, they are a good bet.

BSW
 
S&B is pretty hot stuff compared to regular American range ammo.

BTW that's the beauty of reloading...make it mild or wild to suit your needs.
 
On the idea of loading +P for defensive use and shooting regular ball. Would it be true that, since there is more pressure pushing the slide back, problems related to feeding or stovepiping would happen in the regular ammo before they would happen with the +P ammo?

If so than you don't have to worry about encroaching reliability problems. It's just a matter of how much that extra 10% of momentum hitting your hand affects your shooting (and maybe the bullets hitting a little higher). I could see an argument for that not being a big thing, especially in comparison to the effects of adrenaline you might be experiencing.

JohnBiltz said:
I bought 2,000 rounds of Ranger +P ball ammo a couple of weeks ago. Got a real good price on it too, at SGAmmo. $200 per 1,000 rounds. $26 to ship 2,000 rounds. But no taxes.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winch...ger-124-grain-p-fmj-encapsulated-z-q4362-ammo
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Nice deal! So it sounds like you have options for 9mm +P. But it doesn't sound very good for anything else.
 
I carry 9mm+P and occasionally shoot cheap ($14 a box is cheaper than $20) 9mm nato spec ammo to get something closer to the feel of my carry ammo.

Don't get too wrapped up in +P loadings though. Standard pressure ammo works just fine. Honestly I can hardly tell the difference in recoil between standard and +P in a decent sized gun. My M&P9 no, my Kahr PM9...you bet.
 
On the idea of loading +P for defensive use and shooting regular ball. Would it be true that, since there is more pressure pushing the slide back, problems related to feeding or stove-piping would happen in the regular ammo before they would happen with the +P ammo?
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maybe, or maybe the other way around.
You still have to establish reliability with your chosen defensive load(s) - cheap practice ammo may result in slightly different performance, less recoil energy will affect timing, but the feeding of an auto-loading handgun is such a complex multi-factor event that predicting exactly how is about impossible. Even more impossible since you haven't picked out a gun or load to discuss.

A modern handgun should be designed with wide tolerances in the timing and mechanism, to handle powder-puff antique-friendly loads up to +P, in a variety of grips, with a variety of lubrication, with a variety of bullet weights.
(note, not much is really rated for +P+, which has no actual pressure rating, just "more than the upper limit for +P ... avoid +P+ in anything not rated for it, as a general rule of thumb)

Here's the thing about +P and all the super-duper mega-high-tech ammo loads:
Ammo manufacturers make their defensive ammunition to meet and somewhat exceed the FBI test, in duty chamberings (9x19, fo-tay, .45acp, etc).
So the HP will expand in 12-16" of penetration in gel, through a reasonable amount of cloth covering. More pressure will let a heavier bullet do that, but if a load accomplishes the FBI test you're really fine, everything beyond that is frills, marketing, or attempts to create over-penetration ("enhanced penetration") or under-penetration (frangible nonsense like Glasers)
While +P is a good thing, it isn't the only thing or even a particularly important thing - it is an attempt to squeeze the last 5% or so of performance out of the ammunition, but with a quality hollow-point and a reliable load in your gun, you're already at 95% (numbers are approximately POOMA)
You don't need to practice with +P every time, or even particularly often. Pick a 2-3 reliable loads, test them out, and stock up. Your practice/target/plinking ammo isn't anywhere near as important, at defensive handgun distances POI/POA won't change significantly, and practicing for noise/recoil is mostly fantasy ... in a real defensive shooting you won't be wearing hearing protection and you'll be so amped up on adrenaline that you will probably not notice recoil anyway ... are you going to replicate those conditions?
 
Your practice/target/plinking ammo isn't anywhere near as important, at defensive handgun distances POI/POA won't change significantly, and practicing for noise/recoil is mostly fantasy ... in a real defensive shooting you won't be wearing hearing protection and you'll be so amped up on adrenaline that you will probably not notice recoil anyway ... are you going to replicate those conditions?
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Agreed. In most force on force training I've participated in the focus (involuntarily) was between me and the target I wanted to hit (the guy shooting at me). Nothing else was really noticed during the actual exchanging of shots. Not the recoil, not the noise, just the target and my front sight on it if I was lucky. ;)
 
Ben86 said:
Agreed. In most force on force training I've participated in the focus (involuntarily) was between me and the target I wanted to hit (the guy shooting at me). Nothing else was really noticed during the actual exchanging of shots. Not the recoil, not the noise, just the target and my front sight on it if I was lucky. ;)
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Yeah. I ran across

http://pointshooting.com/1nosight.htm

Which makes me worry about how useful the training I've done would actually be. I suppose that's part of the reason why I'm leaning into +P territory. People always say, correctly, that shot placement is key.

However your target might not decided to approach you aggressively but slowly straight on with their arms down at your sides. In reality I think my performance will be highly degraded, lighting might not be the best, and they might have cover, have their body bladed, have an arm in the way, and generally be able to do a lot of damage to myself even if they do bleed out after ten seconds.

So that extra 10% of energy behind the round may become very important.
 
People been dieing for over a 100yrs from non+P 45acp and for many years befor that from 45 Colt. Iam sure people have been shot from above every angle by now. Their is really no need for +P in 230 gr .
 
MICHAEL T said:
People been dieing for over a 100yrs from non+P 45acp and for many years befor that from 45 Colt. Iam sure people have been shot from above every angle by now. Their is really no need for +P in 230 gr .
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True.

But people have also been surviving .45 ACP hits for that long.

There is a reason nobody has a "shoot once and reholster your gun" drill.


There are tradeoffs, and even training reducing costs could be important, but if anything all handguns are inadequate when it comes to the reliability of one shot instant stops we would like.
 
45 ACP does not rely on massive amounts of speed, it's strength is it's huge frontal area, as long as it expands and penartates it will leave a large PWC. 9mm has a much smaller frontal area and depends more on speed to expand it's PWC beyond the size of the expanded projectile. That is why +P 9mm ammo is common and +P 45 ACP is rare, it really does not need it.
 
True.

But people have also been surviving .45 ACP hits for that long.

There is a reason nobody has a "shoot once and reholster your gun" drill.


There are tradeoffs, and even training reducing costs could be important, but if anything all handguns are inadequate when it comes to the reliability of one shot instant stops we would like.
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Yep.

The reality is that 80% of people shot with handguns in North America survive their wounds. This is the survival rate for any and all calibers and includes multiple wounding as well.

Contrary to "magic bullet" claims and "one shot stop" mumbo-jumbo-stats, the simple truth is that ALL pistol ammo is underpowered for stopping humans. Rather than caliber or bullet brand & speed, what really stops people from committing their assault is proper placement of your shots.
 
CWL said:
Yep.

The reality is that 80% of people shot with handguns in North America survive their wounds. This is the survival rate for any and all calibers and includes multiple wounding as well.

Contrary to "magic bullet" claims and "one shot stop" mumbo-jumbo-stats, the simple truth is that ALL pistol ammo is underpowered for stopping humans. Rather than caliber or bullet brand & speed, what really stops people from committing their assault is proper placement of your shots.
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I didn't have the number, but that sounds about right.

And if you shoot somebody at the right angle through the eyeball or slip one between the ribs into the left ventrical, almost any handgun with almost any bullet is going to be fatal, and probably pretty quickly.

However much more likely that heartshot is going to require the bullet to plow through angled bone if not an arm when firing straight on, or significant lengths of lung on top of that if they're bladed.

And "good shot placement" often means center of mass, at which point your often won't actually be shooting at the heart anyway.

It sounds like most handgun rounds cannot crack the spine from frontal shots.

Further, even with a shot to the heart, if they're close they're going to have plenty of time to shoot you a few times or stab you before blood loss gets them, unless you're lucky enough to have a pressue wave scramble the axons for a moment or they just faint or give up.

Exactly how long they take to drop from blood loss, and how likely the pressure wave thing is to happen, might depend on bullet diameter.

Anyway, it's a complex issue that doesn't actually seem to have been researched much despite the large number of shootings that have occured.

But I'm inclined to think "more" is better up to the point where recoil starts impeeding my ability to shoot fast and accurately or costs keep me from practicing as much as I should.

Hence the appeal of +P as I might be able to get more out of smaller and cheaper rounds.
 
location
depth
width
... in that order

+P claims to help with depth, and sometimes actually does, but you'll still find that ammunition is formulated to pass the FBI test. So +P will push a heavier bullet or a bullet that expands sooner in most cases

It isn't a magic cure for anything, don't get too hung up on it

And ...
But I'm inclined to think "more" is better up to the point where recoil starts impeeding my ability to shoot fast and accurately or costs keep me from practicing as much as I should.
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So you have a shot timer to measure the actual speed between shots?
 
bigfatdave said:
So you have a shot timer to measure the actual speed between shots?
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I'd love to if you know of a model I could buy that would work at a gun range where there could be other people shooting a meter or so away on either side of me.

You'd think with rail mania going on somebody would make one that goes there.

For now it seems I'm if anything faster and more accurate with a Taurus 1911 than a Baretta 92FS when shooting standard Fiocchi target ball ammo in both. But performance seems to degrade significantly with 45 long colt (though that revolver has quite a high bore axis).

So I suppose I'm looking for something in between, but +P ammo expands the performance envelope and might let me have more rounds of something smaller and/or cheaper.
 
Which makes me worry about how useful the training I've done would actually be. I suppose that's part of the reason why I'm leaning into +P territory. People always say, correctly, that shot placement is key.
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Shot placement is key. Training for precise shots is not impractical (as some ninjas would have you believe). The key is balancing speed and precision. Also, as shot placement is difficult under the stress of a dynamic situation, effective ammunition is important. Just because precise shots are difficult under stress doesn't mean they shouldn't be attempted, providing you aren't impractically slow.
 
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