P365 & Hellcat vs Single and Subcompacts

[Styx]

I just handled the Hellcat and P365 about 5 minutes ago at the range. Without having fired either of them, I must say that the P365 felt better in my hand. The Hellcat was okay too. If the Hellcat drops $100 in price, I'd probably would choose it as the P365 is not $100 worth better in hand. Both were tiny but neither felt like like it. With that said and for those who fired the P365 and/or the Hellcat, does it shoot like a larger gun? In your opinions, do these two pistol render the G26, M&P subcompacts, CZ P10s, Shields, G43s, etc obsolete?

I know that the G26, for one example, can accept larger mags, but most aren't going to EDC or carry around the 15-33 round mags. They mostly utilize them at the range, so other than being able to accept high capacity magazines from their big brothers, what do the single stacks and subcompacts offer that's makes them the better option?

 

[needmorecowbell]

Obsolete? Probably not. However I can’t see why anyone would buy today a similarly priced and sized single stack over the P365 or Hellcat when it holds 40% less rounds. The true double stacks that can hold bigger mags and more rounds I get it. I primarily carry those easily anywhere I go.

 

[MikeInOr]

I can slip my DB9 into my front pocket... the P365 I handled won't. A P365 was on my short list... now that some of them are hitting the used market. But I will probably hold out for a Hellcat... it won't replace my DB9 but it will be a nice supplement.

G26s, M&P "sub"compacts, CZ P10s, Shields, G43s, etc. have never been that attractive to me. If I am going to carry a gun that size it will be my XDs or XD mod 2 in .45acp. I am perfectly comfortable carrying a 9mm or even a .380 but if I am going to carry more bulk and weight it will be a .45.

G26s, M&P "sub"compacts, CZ P10s, Shields, G43s, etc. have always seemed like a compromise for someone buying a first handgun... small enough to carry but big enough to be a range gun. For carry I want smaller and for a range gun I want bigger. ...so for me these "sub"compacts are in fact obsolete... for my preferences.

 

[Styx]

Obsolete? Probably not. However I can’t see why anyone would buy today a similarly priced and sized single stack over the P365 or Hellcat when it holds 40% less rounds. The true double stacks that can hold bigger mags and more rounds I get it. I primarily carry those easily anywhere I go.

If you EDC a G26 or the like, how often are you actually carrying or utilizing the bigger mags though?

 

[Styx]

I can slip my DB9 into my front pocket... the P365 I handled won't. A P365 was on my short list... now that some of them are hitting the used market. But I will probably hold out for a Hellcat... it won't replace my DB9 but it will be a nice supplement.

From the looks of the P365, I can't see why it wouldn't fit into most pockets. I owned a DB9 Gen 3 I believe. Purchased it in 2015. Was very unreliable. I was interested in the new model that has the last round hold open and slide lock, but from my research, I've seen several people report having the same failures I had with mine. Plus, the recoil was brutal on my hands, and I'm not overly recoil sensitive. The only thing that I could compare it to would be 357 out of a lightweight jframe... Not fun to shoot at all...

Old pics from a forum post I made back in 2015...

 

[Trey Veston]

Obsolete? Probably not. However I can’t see why anyone would buy today a similarly priced and sized single stack over the P365 or Hellcat when it holds 40% less rounds.

Because gun owners are often not purely rational in their selection of a CCW weapon, nor do they often place an importance on capacity, being completely comfortable relying on the statistics of most shootings taking 2-3 rounds and being within a few feet.

And since most of them won't ever have to rely on a tiny 6-shot pocket carried .380 to defend themselves with, they won't ever have to have their choices vetted.

In the three times in 30 years of carrying that I've had to present a weapon in self-defense, all were while in or near my vehicle and two were over 50' away. In all instances, I had a full-sized pistol.

So I consider at least 10-rounds and 25 yard accuracy a must.

Others disagree and base their opinions on statistics culled largely from urban environments, and that's fine.

 

[MikeInOr]

From the looks of the P365, I can't see why it wouldn't fit into most pockets. I owned a DB9 Gen 3 I believe. Purchased it in 2015. Was very unreliable. I was interested in the new model that has the last round hold open and slide lock, but from my research, I've seen several people report having the same failures I had with mine. Plus, the recoil was brutal on my hands, and I'm not overly recoil sensitive. The only thing that I could compare it to would be 357 out of a lightweight jframe... Not fun to shoot at all...

Old pics from a forum post I made back in 2015...

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I "think" that is a DB9 Gen 2 with the 3 pins above the trigger. I believe it is the Gen 3 that has the hold open. I have been tempted to pick up a Gen 3 but the hold open isn't a big enough upgrade to justify buying a second DB9... for me. I would rather use the money on something different like a Hellcat or P365.

My Gen 2 has been 100% reliable with 4 or 5 hundred rounds through it by now. I don't know how much you liked shooting your DB9 but mine is the most punishing hand gun I have ever shot... ok, second to my buddy's S&W 500 with full power loads. My DB9 fills my pocket... anything bigger I have to carry IWB. When I was at the store I shoved the P365 into me left pocket without a holster and it was signifigantly bulkier then my DB9 which was in a holster in my right pocket. My XDs .45 sits nicely IWB due to it being pretty thin. Thicker works IWB but thinner is more comfortable and I forget it is there much quicker.

 

[Styx]

I "think" that is a DB9 Gen 2 with the 3 pins above the trigger. I believe it is the Gen 3 that has the hold open. I have been tempted to pick up a Gen 3 but the hold open isn't a big enough upgrade to justify buying a second DB9... for me. I would rather use the money on something different like a Hellcat or P365.

My Gen 2 has been 100% reliable with 4 or 5 hundred rounds through it by now. I don't know how much you liked shooting your DB9 but mine is the most punishing hand gun I have ever shot... ok, second to my buddy's S&W 500 with full power loads. My DB9 fills my pocket... anything bigger I have to carry IWB. When I was at the store I shoved the P365 into me left pocket without a holster and it was signifigantly bulkier then my DB9 which was in a holster in my right pocket. My XDs .45 sits nicely IWB due to it being pretty thin. Thicker works IWB but thinner is more comfortable and I forget it is there much quicker.

I think you're right. It was the Gen 2... It's whatever version that's below what's out now. And yes, shooting it was painful... My hands were sore and beat up. Felt like someone slammed my hand in a door. I couldn't get through a box of 50 ammo at the range. After after four or so mags and a few malfunctions, I was done. If you actually like to go to the range and shoot your carry gun, I can't recommend the DB9 whether you got a reliable one or not.

As a side note, the AM2 from DB is similar in size to the P365 from what I hear. I was interested in those too, but I'm a bit apprehensive after seeing some problematic reviews similar to those of the DB9.

 

[MikeInOr]

I think you're right. It was the Gen 2... It's whatever version that's below what's out now. And yes, shooting it was painful... My hands were sore and beat up. Felt like someone slammed my hand in a door. I couldn't get through a box of 50 ammo at the range. After after four or so mags and a few malfunctions, I was done. If you actually like to go to the range and shoot your carry gun, I can't recommend the DB9 whether you got a reliable one or not.

When I was researching the DB9 before I bought it I heard a lot of talk about a "break in period". When my DB9 was new I cleaned it and put it back together dry then racked the slide several hundred times before lubing it and taking it out the first time. I think this might be why I have never had a malfunction.

I completely agree that it is not a fun gun to shoot... but that isn't why I bought it. I will frequently wear a glove when practicing with it at the range. I also put a <s>Hogue grip</s> sleeve on the DB9.

 

[George P]

I just handled the Hellcat and P365 about 5 minutes ago at the range. Without having fired either of them, I must say that the P365 felt better in my hand. The Hellcat was okay too. If the Hellcat drops $100 in price, I'd probably would choose it as the P365 is not $100 worth better in hand. Both were tiny but neither felt like like it. With that said and for those who fired the P365 and/or the Hellcat, does it shoot like a larger gun? In your opinions, do these two pistol render the G26, M&P subcompacts, CZ P10s, Shields, G43s, etc obsolete?

I know that the G26, for one example, can accept larger mags, but most aren't going to EDC or carry around the 15-33 round mags. They mostly utilize them at the range, so other than being able to accept high capacity magazines from their big brothers, what do the single stacks and subcompacts offer that's makes them the better option?

My 365s handle better for me than my G26, G19, and G17, Kahr CM9......the only 9mm that handles better for ME are my HK P7s. The 12 round mags in the 365 just fit my hand really well.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

My 365s handle better for me than my G26, G19, and G17, Kahr CM9......the only 9mm that handles better for ME are my HK P7s. The 12 round mags in the 365 just fit my hand really well.

Lol, man, we could go on with opinions on which each of us find is a better gun all day long. I shot the 365 and sorry, just not me. Like a lot of other Micro 9mm's much better and feel they shoot much better. But again, just my opinion. You should be fond of the gun you own and it should shoot better to you. That is what different guns are all about.
But what does get old is the new round count war. Sorry, I do not buy into it at all. But if I did, I would not stop at just 12rds. I would carry my SR9C with a 17 rd magazine. And too be frank, all the internet hype is making even that sound inadequate.
Just the way the internet works. There will always be a new fad, new hype. God only knows what the next one will be.
Something tells me there are a whole lot of folks that love the gun they now own, shoot it well and won't be jumping any ship for a gun with a few more rounds.
And I will say this. After shooting the Sig 365, I later purchased three more Micro 9mms not 365's. Yes,and I think they are better guns. And I doubt that I am the only person in America or the rest of the world that did in fact buy other guns. Yes, I know it is hard to believe. But Lol, true.
That said, Congrats to all that did, they are great guns and I am totally happy for you and I mean that.

 

[Styx]

What's there not to like about more rounds in a package that's has similar dimensions as other single stacks on the market, but shoots like a typical subcompact double stack?

I love most of the guns I own now, I shoot them well, but there's always room for more.

I wasn't really interested in the P365, and my eyes use to roll in the back of my heard when people constantly brought them up (just like with Glocks). After handling them at my LGS, I'm kind of interest.

 

[Thomas Mayberry]

Earlier this year I test fired a number of compact 9mm handguns, among them were the P365 and S&W Shield. All were good guns that would serve me well but the Shield won out and I've had no regrets on my decision. I recently shot a Glock 48 and it was very good, but not quite enough to lure me away from the Shield.

 

[jonb32248]

VERY happy with my XDE and XD Defender. Have had a few different hand guns over the last 6 yrs, Ruger, Walther, Kel Tec, Glock. Have settled on these two for CC. The G19 sits in the safe 99% of the time. So buy and carry whatever works for YOU.

 

[TTv2]

Some single stacks are exceptionally thin, like Kel Tec's PF9 and Ruger's LC9. The subcompact doublestacks like the G26 are better for people with larger hands and I would believe are better to shoot because you have a wider backstrap and a better grip.

I only have one single stack pistol and it's a steel frame .32, make it a polymer frame 9mm and I can imagine the felt recoil of that being double.

All that said, having more rounds in a gun is always good, but I'm not jumping into either the Hellcat, 365, or Glock 43XL/48 yet. I have the feeling we're going to see a bunch of similar pistols coming out in the next 12 months that will be cheaper from the likes of S&W, Ruger, Taurus, maybe even Kahr and Kel Tec. Those coming out will force the prices on the 365s/Hellcats to come down.

 

[Trey Veston]

Those coming out will force the prices on the 365s/Hellcats to come down.

You don't think under $500 for the latest, greatest and most in demand carry pistols is reasonable? I don't know... My S&W M&P40c 1.0 with night sights was $360, with the 2.0 version about $100 more.

I don't know how much lower you will see the P365 and Hellcat go.

 

[TTv2]

You don't think under $500 for the latest, greatest and most in demand carry pistols is reasonable? I don't know... My S&W M&P40c 1.0 with night sights was $360, with the 2.0 version about $100 more.

I don't know how much lower you will see the P365 and Hellcat go.

$500 for what amounts to a gun with a max range of 10 yards? No, not when you can buy a decent AR for the same price.

Non revolver handguns that cost over 500 are a tough pill for me to swallow. The only one I've ever bought was 500+ was my Glock 35 and the only other one I'm looking at paying more than that for is a 10mm Glock.

 

[tarosean]

You don't think under $500 for the latest, greatest and most in demand carry pistols is reasonable?

Odd phenomenon for sure. Not many consumer goods we purchase will last our lifetime..

 

[tarosean]

What's there not to like about more rounds in a package that's has similar dimensions as other single stacks on the market, but shoots like a typical subcompact double stack?

You probably need to actually shoot it..

 

[sigarms228]

I liked the P365 and Hellcat right up until I actually shot them. Both are just too small for my hands, particularly in regards to trigger reach. For me my original Walther PPS is a great shooter for me and my choice for all day comfort CCW. If I want more rounds in my CCW pistol I CCW my Gen 2 Glock 19 which is also comfortable for me to CCW but my PPS does have a slight edge. Only live fire will determine how well a particular pistol works for an individual per their requirements.

IMHO and pistol like the Glock 26 will be more reliable and durable than something like the SIG P365 for the long term. We also do not know how the magazines/magazine springs for these new pistols like the P365 and Hellcat will hold up for the long terms. I suspect a simple 7 round single stack magazine for my PPS will be trouble free for many years.

 

[Styx]

$500 for what amounts to a gun with a max range of 10 yards? No, not when you can buy a decent AR for the same price.

Non revolver handguns that cost over 500 are a tough pill for me to swallow. The only one I've ever bought was 500+ was my Glock 35 and the only other one I'm looking at paying more than that for is a 10mm Glock.

That's just the price we have to pay and the market demand for handguns. The market is flooded with ARs, and they don't have that much value. Plus a lot of people already have several, ammo is more expensive, there aren't a lot of places most people can go that allow rifle calibers, and they aren't carried everyday. Try to resale a home built cheap AR, and you'll won't get much for it. A lot of people will not even consider them for trade unless it's a brand name, and even then it's a harder sale vs handguns.

 

[TTv2]

Odd phenomenon for sure. Not many consumer goods we purchase will last our lifetime..

True, but unlike other consumer goods, we're not shooting a gun every day with our lives on the line, not to mention that a $300 gun will likely also last a lifetime like the $500 gun.

 

[Styx]

You probably need to actually shoot it..

Obviously... Within context, George P stated his P365 shot like his G26, G19, G17, and CM9. Jeb Stuart quoted his post, and I replied with a rhetorical question within context of George P's post.

 

[TTv2]

I liked the P365 and Hellcat right up until I actually shot them. Both are just too small for my hands, particularly in regards to trigger reach. For me my original Walther PPS is a great shooter for me and my choice for all day comfort CCW. If I want more rounds in my CCW pistol I CCW my Gen 2 Glock 19 which is also comfortable for me to CCW but my PPS does have a slight edge. Only live fire will determine how well a particular pistol works for an individual per their requirements.

IMHO and pistol like the Glock 26 will be more reliable and durable than something like the SIG P365 for the long term. We also do not know how the magazines/magazine springs for these new pistols like the P365 and Hellcat will hold up for the long terms. I suspect a simple 7 round single stack magazine for my PPS will be trouble free for many years.

When the design is good and they're made right magazines are very robust. I can't think of a gun whose magazines didn't hold up for decades. There are still 30+ year old Glock mags floating around in states like Massachusetts, however they get the advantage of being the mags for the most popular police and civilian pistol in the world so replacement followers and springs are easy to get.

I'd be a lot more worried about the longevity of the guns as I have to believe when they charge $30-40 for a magazine the manufacturer isn't sparing any expense on them.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

You probably need to actually shoot it..

A big Ditto on that one.