PA State Parks: CCW Not Honored

[Beren]

I'd heard from a few people that Pennsylvania carry permits were not recognized in state parks, but I couldn't find anything which specifically addressed the issue. After looking over the park regulations, which did mention it was not permitted to carry an uncased firearm, I decided to ask the horse directly.

From their response, both concealed and unconcealed carry is prohibited, except where explicitly permitted by the state park regulations. (Actively engaged in hunting or target shooting in designated areas, in one's vehicle, etc.)

Here's the response:

=====

This is in response to your e-mail regarding firearms. A holstered
firearm, concealed or not, is considered uncased. Individuals may bring a
firearm onto state park property, but must keep it in their car,
trailer, or leased campsite. Carrying a concealed firearm to the washhouse,
fishing, hiking or elsewhere is prohibited.

PA State Parks realizes that the Pennsylvania Crimes Code, section
6106, does permit an individual with the proper license to carry a firearm.
However, our Chief Counsel advises that when the safety of the general
public is in question, in areas such as airports, schools, or parks,
other public laws supersede the Code regarding the carrying of a firearm.
We believe our policy has and will continue to provide for the adequate
protection and safety of all park visitors.

Thank you for your interest in PA State Parks. If you have any further
questions or comments please feel free to contact me.

=====

 

[WT]

Good information. Great reminder that when one carries "concealed" the firearm must really be "concealed."

 

[K-Romulus]

interesting remark

However, our Chief Counsel advises that when the safety of the general
public is in question, in areas such as airports, schools, or parks,
other public laws supersede the Code regarding the carrying of a firearm.

I wonder how that came to be - the law is law, unless there's "a really good reason."

 

[sendec]

There was no mention of a statute or code that made carry "illegal"?



It sorta sounds like they just decided to not allow firearms. The only way that could carry the force of law is if were codified, and if it were codified I would expect them to reference the specific code.

Weird....

 

[rms/pa]

yep they are making up laws by fiat.
but do you want to be the test case?

frankly i do not know enough about the state premtion law to know if state agencys can do this.

i doubt there is a big push to change the situation(although there should be).

also fast eddie from phila is not likly to get into this.

might want to inquire to the PA atty gen office on this.

rms/pa

 

[geekWithA.45]

Yup, sounds like usurpation of authority to me.

A "policy" without statutory authority is just that.

A more pointed question would be "what exactly would a permit holder carrying a concealed firearm in a state park be charged with?"

Beren, could you follow up, since you're already in the loop?

Thanks.


edited to add: My guess is the response would be

uh...splutter...uh....you'll be asked to leave/your gun will be confiscated/you'll be charged with something vague like creating a public nuisance.

 

[SJG26]

Can you cite your source??

Beren:

Which end of the horse was the source of the response?? Was this from the Park Commission or the AG's Office??

I camp often ( and in state Parks)---I'll be damned to not CCW with my family along and few other people in sight!!

 

[Beren]

This particular horse holds the title of 'Park Manager Trainee, Bureau of State Parks, Operations and Maintenance Division.'

I haven't contacted the AG yet, as I hope to see the DCNR reconsider their stance. This particular horse isn't someone who can change policies, of course, but he's an initial point of contact.

By my reading of the state park's rules and regulations, all they can do is ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, it's criminal trespass and you may be charged.

I have written back requesting clarification on penalties for violation of the prohibition, and to inquire as to whether or not the DCNR would be willing to reconsider their policy concerning concealed carry by state-licensed individuals.

Depending on how this works out, we may need to call on our state representatives for help. The more people willing to make calls and write letters, the better - but please hold off until we hear a bit more from the DCNR folks.

 

[Beren]

To their credit they have been very responsive and polite regarding my questions, even if their answers are troubling. Here's their response to my latest inquiry:

=====

This is in response to your recent e-mail regarding firearms.
Individuals may bring a firearm onto state park property, but must keep it in
their car, trailer, or leased campsite. This rule is enforced and
violators will be asked to leave. Visitors who refuse to leave upon Park
Officer request will be ordered to do so. Continued refusal may result
in arrest, criminal trespass charges and other appropriate charges
being filed. Our Bureau does not currently plan to revise the firearms
policy.

Please remember that PA State Parks wishes to ensure safety and
enjoyment for all park visitors. I regret that you are experiencing
difficulties with our firearms policy and thank you for your comments. If you
have any further questions or comments please feel free to contact me.

=====

 

[sendec]

That IS a nice response,

Even if not the one you want. It sounds like one of those, "well, its not legal or illegal" things.

IMHO, if you can pronounce Youghihishn;divj'wofvkk whatever, they should GIVE you a gun.

 

[Diggler]

I call bull.

First, IANAL.

Unless it is specifically written in the law regarding CCW, they can't just make up laws, except at the statewide level, because of this nice little tidbit...

Title 18 § 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition.

(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

I argued on the phone with some Allegheny County police officers who swore I'd be arrested if I carried into the Pittsburgh Airport (NOT past the secure area, just into the property). I kept asking them to give me the statute that I would be arrested under if I would do that. They couldn't do it. I didn't make a production about it when I went down, because I didn't want to be a test case. Just wanted to let them know that some people know they're bluffing.

Schools aren't illegal. Maybe not the best idea, but not illegal. Airports aren't illegal, no matter what they'd like to tell you. Unless it's specifically spelled out in state law, you can do it. Ask for a SPECIFIC statute.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Diggler's right:

PA's got pre-emption, so the (potentially, after bux and lawyers) the state parkies will ultimately have to STFD and ****.

Preventing it from getting that far can involve printouts of relevant laws, and constructive notice that the officers can be held criminally and civilly liable. There are several examples on how to politely and firmly assert your rights on this forum, and they should probably be reviewed.


PA is one of those states with the SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED phrase in its right to arms clause, and it sure sounds like the state parkies are asking too many questions.



As for criminal trespass, here's the statutes:




PART II. DEFINITION OF SPECIFIC OFFENSES.
CHAPTER 35 BURGLARY AND OTHER CRIMINAL INTRUSION

§ 3501. Definitions.
§ 3502. Burglary.
§ 3503. Criminal trespass.
§ 3501. Definitions.

Subject to additional definitions contained in subsequent provisions of this chapter which are applicable to specific provisions of this chapter, the following words or phrases, when used in this chapter shall have, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise, the meanings given to them in this section:
"Occupied structure."
Any structure, vehicle or place adapted for overnight accommodation of persons, or for carrying on business therein, whether or not a person is actually present.
§ 3502. Burglary.

(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of burglary if he enters a building or occupied structure, or separately secured or occupied portion thereof, with intent to commit a crime therein, unless the premises are at the time open to the public or the actor is licensed or privileged to enter.

(b) Defense.--It is a defense to prosecution for burglary that the building or structure was abandoned.

(c) Grading.--
Except as provided in paragraph 2, burglary is a felony of the first degree.
If the building, structure or portion entered is not adapted for overnight accommodation and if no individual is present at the time of entry, burglary is a felony of the second degree.

(d) Multiple convictions.--A person may not be convicted both for burglary and for the offense which it was his intent to commit after the burglarious entry or for an attempt to commit that offense, unless the additional offense constitutes a felony of the first or second degree.
§ 3503. Criminal trespass.

(a) Buildings and occupied structures.--
A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he:
enters, gains entry by subterfuge or surreptitiously remains in any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof; or
breaks into any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof.
An offense under paragraph (1)(I) is a felony of the third degree, and an offense under paragraph (1)(ii) is a felony of the second degree.
As used in this subsection:
"Breaks into"
To gain entry by force, breaking, intimidation, unauthorized opening of locks, or through an opening not designed for human access.

(b) Defiant trespasser.--
A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
actual communication to the actor;
posting in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to exclude intruders;
notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at each entrance of school grounds that visitors are prohibited without authorization from a designated school, center or program official; or
an actual communication to the actor to leave school grounds as communicated by a school, center or program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement officer.
Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v) constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree. Otherwise it is a summary offense.

(b.1) Simple trespasser.--
A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place for the purpose of:
threatening or terrorizing the owner or occupant of the premises;
starting or causing to be started any fire upon the premises; or
defacing or damaging the premises.
An offense under this subsection constitutes a summary offense.

(b.2) Agricultural trespasser.--
A person commits an offense if knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so he:
enters or remains on any agricultural or other open lands when such lands are posted in a manner prescribed by law or reasonably likely to come to the person's attention or are fenced or enclosed in a manner manifestly designed to exclude trespassers or to confine domestic animals; or
enters or remains on any agricultural or other open lands and defies an order not to enter or to leave that has been personally communicated to him by the owner of the lands or other authorized person.
An offense under this subsection shall be graded as follows:
An offense under paragraph (1)(i) constitutes a misdemeanor of the third degree and is punishable by imprisonment for a term of not more than one year and a fine of not less than $250.
An offense under paragaraph (1)(ii) constitutes a misdemeanor of the second degree and is punishable by imprisonment for a term of not more than two years and a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.
For the purposes of this subsection, the phrase "agricultural or other open lands" shall mean any land on which agricultural activity or farming as defined in section 3309 (relating to agricultural vandalism) is conducted or any land populated by forest trees of any size and capable of producing timber or other wood products or any other land in an agricultural security area as defined in the act of June 30, 1981 (P.L. 128, No. 43), known as the Agricultural Area Security Law, or any area zoned for agricultural use.

(c) Defenses.- It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
a building or occupied structure involved in an offense under subsection (a) of this section was abandoned;
the premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or
the actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain.

(d) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "school grounds" means any building of or grounds of any elementary or secondary publicly funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education, any elementary or secondary parochial school, any certified day-care center or any licensed preschool program.

-----------------
Sigh.

Even if we print out all the relevant statutes that hold them at bay, we wind up carting around a phone book.

Which is, of course, a dead giveaway.


The relevant portion is this:


the premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises;

Prohibitting lawful CCW as a condition of access is not a lawful condition of access, and the state parks are open to the public.

Therefore, trespass DOES NOT APPLY.

Period.

End of Story.


If anyone could make up whatever conditions they felt like for access to the public areas, they could presumably nail you on tresspassing for any reason or none, for example, for not wearing the right color shirt.

 

[chetth]

§ 11.215. Weapons and hunting

Below I posted the PA code relating to Weapons and hunting in state parks. I don’t think the Trespass section applies. That said, I think it is trumped by pre-emption and the PA state constitution which says:

Right to Bear Arms
Section 21.
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also have a License to carry a firearm issued by the state that clearly states ‘self defense’ for ‘reason to carry’ (the license does not distinguish between concealed and open

I just don’t feel like being a test case today
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


17 PA. CODE CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES
PART I. DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES
Subpart B. STATE PARKS
CHAPTER 11. GENERAL PROVISIONS


§ 11.215. Weapons and hunting. The following activities are prohibited without written permission of the Department:

(1) Hunting, pursuing or intentionally disturbing woodchucks, also known as groundhogs. Paragraph (2) does not apply to this activity.

(2) Hunting, pursuing or intentionally disturbing wildlife unless:

(i) The person engaging in the activity is licensed by the Game Commission to hunt and is engaged in hunting in accordance with the Game and Wildlife Code.

(ii) The activity takes place in an area designated by the Department for hunting. At Presque Isle State Park, waterfowl hunting may take place only from a facility designated by the Department as a waterfowl blind, and shooting shall be directed away from State park land and over the adjacent waters.

(iii) The activity takes place during hunting season as established by the Game Commission.

(iv) The firearm, archery equipment or other device used for this activity is lawful for hunting under the Game and Wildlife Code. A device operated by air, chemical or gas cylinder by which a projectile can be discharged or propelled is not lawful for hunting under the Game and Wildlife Code.

(3) Using a device, including a firearm, archery equipment or slingshot, that is capable of discharging or propelling a projectile, except as provided in paragraph (2) or (7).

(4) Possessing an uncased device, or uncasing a device, including a firearm, archery equipment or slingshot, that is capable of discharging or propelling a projectile, except as provided in paragraph (2) or (7), or except in the owner's building on a leased campsite, in the owner's residence, or in the owner's vehicle or trailer.

(5) Failing to keep a device, including a firearm, archery equipment or slingshot, that is capable of discharging or propelling a projectile, in the owner's building on a leased campsite, in the owner's residence or in the owner's vehicle or trailer. This prohibition does not apply to either of the following:

(i) A person licensed by the Game Commission to hunt, and in possession of a device that is lawful for hunting under the Game and Wildlife Code, during hunting season as established by the Game Commission, in a State park open for hunting.

(ii) A person engaged in target-shooting under paragraph (7).

(6) The trapping of wildlife. This prohibition does not apply to a person licensed by the Game Commission to engage in trapping, during trapping season as established by the Game Commission, in an area designated by the Department for hunting.

(7) Target-shooting with a device, including a firearm, archery equipment or slingshot, capable of discharging or propelling a projectile, except in an area designated by the Department for this purpose and in accordance with posted requirements and restrictions.

(8) Dog training, except from the day following Labor Day through March 31, in an area designated by the Department for hunting.

 

[SMMAssociates]

The signs at PIT are barely visible outside of the sterile area....

I doubt if they'd pass muster if the law (haven't looked) specifies anything past "signs".

I suppose the TSA could claim jurisdiction, though....

ODNR (Ohio's wildlife folks) have also prohibited CCW while hunting pretty much everywhere in the state. The pre-emption rules _may_ cover this as they appear to do in PA, but it's not nearly as solid. (IANAL, and IMHO.)

Some Federal and State parks are also "no carry" generally, hunting or not, but municipal parks are not "no carry."

(OH's signage rule just implies visible. Same misdemeanor issues - leave or get charged - except in bars and restaurants that serve liquor, where its a felony.)

Usually you'll see "Officer Safety" as a reason for the parks. When you see "Public Safety", it's the misled mommies....

Yup - stop hijackings by banning travel agents....