Paging El Tejon (and other attorneys)

[Monkeyleg]

In order to get the support of the six Democrats we need for a veto override, the authors of WI's CCW bill had to accept an amendment that makes it a felony for anyone to carry outside his vehicle within 100 feet of school property.

As unplatable as such an amendment is, we all know that we can come back in future legislative sessions to strip that amendment out of the law.

However, there seems to be some confusion about what constitutes "school property." The amendment says (and you can read it here that school property includes buses owned by the school.

Just about every school district in the state contracts out to private companies for school buses.

So, in your humble opinion, would a bus owned by a private company be considered "school property?"

If so, then WI is going to have a lot of felons.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I am surprised you would be willing to support a law that had that amendment in it. If it were a misdemeanor, that would be one thing, but a felony? That means you lose the right to even own a gun, and can't vote. You will have a hard time ever finding a new job too, if they run a background check on you.

 

[TrapperReady]

Dick, another thing I wonder about are other school owned vehicles. I know that the amendment specifically mentions buses. However, our local school district also owns a number of panel vans which are used by building and grounds maintenance. They are clearly marked as district vehicles.

Since the bill mentions school property, and goes on to specify a type of motor vehicle (buses), does that offer enough wiggle room to include the vans I mentioned? The reason this is a big deal is that all (or at least the vast majority) of local buses are privately owned, so that may be OK. However, I see the others on a near daily basis as I go through town.

BTW, I'm in Appleton, so I'm doubly paranoid due to our police chief's previous threats. It'd be one thing if it was a misdemeanor, but a felony is a lot more of a problem.

I fall into the "get anything passed and work on it later" crowd, but I'd be lying if I said that this doesn't concern me greatly.

 

[El Tejon]

Depends.

1. What the statute itself says;
2. How the Wisconsin Supreme Court and Court of Appeals defined "owned", does "owned" include contractors, does leasing equate to ownership?

So, if I understand right, the bus would be a mobile "no carry zone" for footborne Wisconsinites? What if a school bus drives by a gun show? Hilarity ensues.

Seems to me that such an issue needs to be fixed in the statute or mass confusion/litigation will ensue (removing buses or just limit it to on busses not on school real property, etc).

 

[Wiley]

Not a lawyer but, as I understand it there are two classes of owners: 'de facto' and 'de jure' (spelling suspect).

'de facto' is the owner 'in fact' i.e., the bus contracting company.
'de jure' is under the law i.e., the school board.

When you rent an apartment, you are the 'de jure' owner. Actual title to the property remains with the apartment building owner, the owner in fact.

So under the law the school is the owner of ALL rented, leased, donated and contractualy used busses, vans, bicycles, rollerscates, shoes, buildings,... Well you get the idea.

You've been hosed!

 

[Janitor]

What if a school bus drives by a gun show? Hilarity ensues.

Exactly what I've been thinking!

I can't believe that an ammendmant like this is ok with any of the lawmakers on either side of the fence. Can even the senators who are so dedicated to representing sheeple honestly believe that such a vague law is a good thing to have on the books? Aren't they concerned with their laws being robust enough to stand a test in court?
-

 

[mpthole]

Aren't they concerned with their laws being robust enough to stand a test in court?

Have they ever been concerned about that?!?

ex. The original passage of our RKBA amendment - should have automatically stripped the law on concealed carry; at the Federal level: campaign finance reform, Patriot Act, "Assault" Weapons ban, etc.

 

[locnload]

Although I have been away for nearly 30 years, I grew up in Wisconsin and find it strange that it turns out to be one of the most anti-gun rights states, and one of the few remaining hold outs for "Shall Issue" carry. Guns were as common as hammers, and just as easy to pick up at the Local hardware store. At 12 years old I used to ride the back roads on my bike with a 22 rifle strapped across the handlebars looking for good squirll woods, and no one batted an eye. Your Governor has vowed to veto this bill, and chances are good that many of its supporters will wuss out when it comes time to override his veto, so it may be a moot point. But this "School Zone" amendment sounds like a posion pill, and a dream for a Sheriff or Police Officer who hates the ideas of mere citizens having the abilty to defend themselves. Talk about selective enforcement possibities. Maybe you should just scrap the whole thing and pass a "Bill of Rights Enforcement" amendment that all the stupid Democrats and thin skinned Republicans can't screw up.

 

[Henry Bowman]

As El Tejon said, it depends on the language of the bill. I heard another commentator describe it as "school grounds." That's bad enough, but would clarify that it meant real property, not personal property, like vehicles.

 

[Waitone]

Poison Pill

 

[Gray Peterson]

If I were a real anti-gunner who hated gun owners and wanted to get as many of them in trouble as possible, I would get a school bus, a district owned one, and drive by gun shows, gun stores, and the like, then sick the cops on the people I knew that carry.

 

[Can'thavenuthingood]

Vote against this.

Has home schooling been considered?

Even if in the right, it will cost you dearly in court to defend your interpretation of the law. In the meantime you are gunless.

I agree, its a poison pill.

Start over.

Vick

 

[geekWithA.45]

Ya know, I'm slowly drawing to the conclusion that people who believe that a law abiding citizen who has gone through the onerous background checks, training, and permitting process suddenly becomes a public menace to school children, and should be arrested, stripped of arms and votes, and incarcerated for more than a year because they stepped out of their car really need to have the snot beaten out of them.

 

[Werewolf]

Is an exemption made for folks who own guns and live within a 100 feet of a school?

 

[TrapperReady]

Reading most of the responses to the local paper, it truly appears as though the antis think that we are all just a fender-bender or argument away from becoming cold-blooded murderers. I can't even begin to comprehend the way their brains work.

 

[Monkeyleg]

I checked with Zien's chief of staff, and the drafting attorney told him that the school property provision did not apply to buses owned by private companies. I don't think there are too many schools in WI that own their own buses.

Also, the drafting attorney had warned Dem Rep. Mary Hubler, the author of the amendment, that the school bus provision was unconstitutional, and wouldn't survive a court challenge. She insisted that the language be inserted anyway.

So, if anyone should get arrested for carrying concealed near a school bus, that will be the first supreme court case. The thing is, how will anyone know if someone is carrying concealed near a bus?

 

[Car Knocker]

This amendment precludes armed parents from walking their kids to school, also. Does this amendment also include daycare, pre-schools, religious schools, public and private colleges and extension facilities, school district offices, warehouses and maintenance facilities? As Werewolf noted, is there an exemption for residents that fall withing the 100 foot zone?

 

[Smurfslayer]

Here's the problem: This restriction will be incredibly difficult to fight in future years. You are far better off without any concealed carry law, than with a law with provisions as you describe. Virginia had just such a problem - an instant felony for going onto school property, including a 'school event' which could have literally been construed as just about anything. Run into a field trip school bus at a fast food joint - felon. It was amended last year to get rid of some of the most onerous provisions, and now it's like the proposed Wis. bill somewhat- you can have a concealed gun (not an open one though) with a permit, *IN* a vehicle. The thing is, schools are used for voting stations, community events, governmental gatherings and emergency shelters. VERY bad idea to let this provision through.

Dont' let the schools restriction in. If that is the ONLY Way to pass shall issue, come back next session. The acts of your assembly are presumed to be constitutional, so the burden of proving a statute is not constitutional will be upon the arrestee, and that is a very steep hill to climb. It only takes a bad case, or someone who "gives up" to set a bad precedent for everyone in the state.

 

[CatsDieNow]

100 feet from which part of the school? The property line or the building itself? Is the kids' littered homework blowing through my yard school property?

If it's the property line, then my entire house would be contained within this zone. With this law I'd have to keep all my guns in the trunk of my car (which would then get me in trouble with my employer who says I can't have them in the parking lot of their property).

Glad I live in Texas. Good luck to you all up there in Wisconsin.

 

[Monkeyleg]

The problem with just coming back next year is that there's a distinct possibility that the Republicans could suffer a net loss of three seats in the senate. That would mean that it would be years before we could try again, even with a Republican governor.

The fact that schools are used as voting places doesn't mean anything; federal law prohibits guns in school zones, as does Wisconsin law.

This was indeed a poison pill, and the Democrats didn't think that Gunderson would go for it. Now Mary Hubler is on record as saying that she would vote for the override.

There's just been a general sense among many involved that this year may be our only chance.

Of course, we could easily see one of three Democrats who voted for the bill the other day flip on the veto override.

 

[Car Knocker]

Wasn't the federal school zone law ruled unconstitutional a few years ago?

 

[TrapperReady]

Dick - Do we know what would happen if the amendment was found to be unconstitutional after the bill passed into law? Would only that portion be struck down, or would the entire law be overturned?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Supreme courts do odd things from time to time, and may find something constitutional that no one thought was.

Remember Campaign Finance Reform? It was signed into law by Bush, who felt the SC would strike it down. However, the SC upheld it as constitutional.

I am in favor of concealed carry, but think the law they are trying to pass in SC is terrible and needs to be voted down.

 

[Gray Peterson]

Now my question is, does this apply to home schools? Does it apply only to carrying a concealed weapon? Or can it be applied to open carry as well?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As El Tejon said, it depends on the language of the bill. I heard another commentator describe it as "school grounds." That's bad enough, but would clarify that it meant real property, not personal property, like vehicles.

Second that.

Get it revised to use the term "school grounds" and add a definition that declares school grounds to be real property used for educational buildings. Watch out for "gotchas" like school-owned stadiums and sports facilties that may be owned by a school or school district but used for purposes other than education.