Partially concealed carry ?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by 3Crows, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. 3Crows

    3Crows Member

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    I am knowing this is probably a dumb question but forgive me in advance. My state is constitutional carry and has open carry, permit-less concealed carry and licensed concealed carry. I have the later, concealed carry license. I have concealed carried for many years and occasionally open carried, mostly when hunting or outdoors.

    I rarely tuck in my shirts, be they a t-shirt or a button up, I wear them untucked and many of my shirts are "untucked" length, shorter for that specific purpose (and usually fitted) off the rack (example, Walmart Wrangler western shirts untucked length, slim fit, off the rack). So, if my intention is to open carry but my shirt partially covers the weapon is that a problem? Some of my shirts may cover the weapon but not hide that I am carrying a 1911. Again, my intention is not concealed carry but open carry but my garment might cover or partially cover the weapon at times, is this okay?

    Or I am cycling (or motorcycling) and my intention is open carry (especially on the bicycle) but say I put a windbreaker on due to chilling effect of the wind, now my 1911 or Glock 19 is partially covered but not concealed enough to be concealed carry. I had a trooper stop me on my bicycle and give me grief over it and then he got a call and left. I told him I was not concealed carrying but open carrying and he just gave me this blank look of confusion.

    Do I have to keep the weapon fully exposed if I am open carry?
     
  2. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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  3. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    In my experience, there are very few dumb questions in regards to firearms. No apology necessary there.

    Typically in states where open carry is legal and concealed carry is licensed, carrying open while licensed is not a legal issue. Kansas seems to be the same where unlicensed concealed carry of a firearm is where the legal trouble happens. But carrying openly while licensed is allowed. Here is the full section from Senate Bill 45 from 2015.

    "Sec. 8. K.S.A. 2014 Supp. 75-7c03 is hereby amended to read as fol-lows: 75-7c03. (a) The attorney general shall issue licenses to carry concealed handguns to persons who comply with the application and training requirements of this act and who are not disqualified under K.S.A. 2014Supp. 75-7c04, and amendments thereto. Such licenses shall be valid throughout the state for a period of four years from the date of issuance.The availability of licenses to carry concealed handguns under this act shall not be construed to impose a general prohibition on the carrying of handguns without such license, whether carried openly or concealed, or loaded or unloaded"

    http://www.kslegislature.org/li_2016/b2015_16/measures/documents/sb45_enrolled.pdf
    Page 8

    Here is also a FAQ page from the state AG. Nothing in there about open carry while licensed, but some useful answers.
    https://ag.ks.gov/docs/default-source/documents/concealed-carry-faqs.pdf?sfvrsn=6
     
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  4. FFGColorado

    FFGColorado Member

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    So..if you have your CCWP license with you..why does it matter if the gun is concealed or not? You are 'legal' both ways, open OR concealed. Unless I'm missing something. When I ride my bicycle, I put my G42 in my jersey pocket and my CCWP in the other with my phone.
     
  5. 3Crows

    3Crows Member

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    Beats me, that is what I asked the trooper. He said I was only partially concealed, I said I was open carry, he said I was brandishing---then he got a call and left. I am not going to worry about it further, if he stops me again maybe we can finish the conversation. I was just wanting to make sure there is not something I am missing.
     
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  6. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Just because they are tasked with enforcing the law doesn't mean they know what it is.
     
  7. 3Crows

    3Crows Member

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    I am going off the deep end, forgive me yet again. I lived in Houston for a decade and was semi-pro even for a bit in triathlon and was big into cycling and racing. Never had an issue in the Big H, rode everywhere, all over, bad neighborhoods, good neighborhoods, everywhere, cannot recall any incidents, none :) . Lived in Arizona, rode all over, no incidents to speak of. But here in Kansas in the middle of nowhere on roads so deserted grass grows on them I have had a few odd encounters including one where a person in a vehicle side swiped me and double back to do it again. And another I was attacked by two pit-bull type dogs resulting in a broken femur, dislocated hip and cracked hip and knee damage and a stroke. Oh, and the owner gathered the dogs up after they had also bit me and went off.

    So, at that point I started carrying open and the trooper is right, I am displaying a 1911 and if that is brandishing I guess the trooper will have to live with it because by da---- right, it is indeed a warning that this ol'fella now 67 years of our lord old is not going to take any foolishness.

    So, maybe he is right, having a huge pistol strapped to my axx while cycling is brandishing, I guess it is open to interpretation.
     
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  8. wiscoaster

    wiscoaster Member

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    deleted
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
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  9. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Why are you quoting a California lawyer talking about a California statute, when the OP is in Kansas?

    Your post is useless to the OP and does not contribute to the discussion in this thread.
     
  10. 3Crows

    3Crows Member

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    I think what the officer was getting at is that so prominently displaying a weapon could be taken as a threat. I take the law, as I am understanding, that exhibiting a weapon takes some action on my part OTHER THAN simply being open carry, even if the weapon is large and conspicuous, even intentionally so. Open carry is not exhibiting. Like I said, I am not going to worry over it further. The officer was pleasant and professional, just confused ;).
     
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  11. wiscoaster

    wiscoaster Member

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    OK, fine, I deleted it.
     
  12. 3Crows

    3Crows Member

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    You did not need to do that, I read everything posted. Including everything you post. Thanks for your efforts, it was appreciated. Everyone is appreciated.
     
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  13. wiscoaster

    wiscoaster Member

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    Frank Ettin is correct. Though not very gracious in how he stated it. What I posted isn't applicable to Kansas. Kansas' definition is different. Thank you, though, for your gracious appreciation. :cool:
     
  14. Hasaf

    Hasaf Member

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    The only two states I regularly carry in are Kansas and Missouri. My carry method is best described as "ill-concealed." Much the same as you describe, I use a belt holster that is typically covered by a single garment, like an open shirt or a windbreaker. I have never had any problems with my method even though it has been clearly observed by various LEOs'.
     
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  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    "Brandishing" may or may not be the term used to define unlawful display in a particular jurisdiction, but if something is defined as unlawful, the trooper does not have to "deal with it".

    What constitutes concealment varies among jurisdictions.

    The definition and description lawfulness of exhibition and display also differ.

    Lawful open carry would not constitute "brandishing", by whatever term.

    However, an overt act to draw someone's attention to a firearm for the purpose of influencing his behavior, whether that involves showing the gun or not, can create problems, even where open carry is lawful.

    There are now more states that provide for the defensive display of a firearm than there were a dozen years ago, but one should not believe that those laws necessarily protect one against charges. They all require that the firearm be displayed only in a particlar manner and only for lawful purposes. What constitutes a lawful manner may be specified in the code, but what constitutes a lawful purpose will decided in the criminal justice system after the fact.

    So do I.

    I would not, however, argue with an officer.
     
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  16. F-111 John

    F-111 John Member

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    Whether open carrying a firearm is considered 'brandishing' can only be answered in open court after an arrest and trial.

    It cannot be answered here, only speculated upon.
     
  17. DMK

    DMK Member

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    Is "brandishing" described in your state statute?

    These vague terms are disturbing catch alls. In NC, even though open carry is legal, we also we have a common law offence describing "going armed to the terror of the people". I once saw a police officer ask someone open carrying to leave a non-posted store because a) a customer complained, and b) "he was swaggering". This offense was mentioned in that case.
     
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  18. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Sounds like to me you would be well-served by printing a copy of the relevant Kansas statutes and keeping a copy with you whenever you are carrying a gun. I’m told that approach has proven useful multiple times for dealing with the TSA when attempting to check a firearm on an airplane.
     
  19. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    So is partially concealed like slightly pregnant?

    Printing through clothing is not open carry, nor is it brandishing. Brandishing generally involves holding a weapon, or possibly intentionally exposing it, usually to incite fear.

    Unfortunately, if you asked three different police officers, you might get three different answers. But on the street they are the law, it's up to a judge to sort it out if one decides to make an arrest. Resisting the arrest, because you know you're right, can result in an additional charge.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    This has been discussed before.

    "Brandishing" may or may not appear on the statute books.

    Whether or how the exposure of a firearm in a concealed-carry-only situation may constitute an offense regarding the failure to conceal varies among jurisdictions.

    There are other offenses that can be brought up regarding behavior with weapons. They do not necessarily require that a firearm be seen, exposed, or touched.

    It is up to the judge to decide upon the admissibility of evidence an to instruct a jury. It is up to a jury to decide upon the facts.
     
  21. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Not all trials are jury trials, many are what are called bench trials, where the judge is the decider of the facts.

    A judge can also dismiss on motion before a trial if the arrest was obviously a mistake.
     
  22. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Sure.
     
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  23. film495

    film495 Member

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    Definition of brandish
    (Entry 1 of 2)

    transitive verb

    1: to shake or wave (something, such as a weapon) menacingly
     
  24. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    On the other hand --

    Brandish:

    See also, California Penal Code 417 for some examples of how a firearm can be unlawfully displayed under California law:

    Other States also have a variety of laws relating to the unlawful display of a weapon.
     
  25. wiscoaster

    wiscoaster Member

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    As I learned after having properly researched various relevant state laws, the term "brandish" does not have to be used in the legal code to make the referenced behavior unlawful, nor does the firearm necessarily have to be actually in the physical grasp of the person involved. It all depends on what the jurisdiction's code says ... and the description of what's unlawful varies ... making it confusing for both citizen and law enforcement.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
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