Particular Brand, Weight and Type bullet question.

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Roamin_Wade

Roamin_Wade

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I’m trying to consider which will be better for an up to 500 yd shot at a Mule deer. I know that each brand/weight/type bullet reacts to different guns differently but I’m not concerned with that yet. I’m trying to figure out which brand, weight, and design bullet will be the best to use between a 270 Win and a 308 Win rifle as those are the two I will have to choose from. 130 gr or 150 gr 270? 150 gr or 180 gr 308? Nosler Partition or Core Lokt Remington, etc.. Please offer your advice.
 
The major player these days for long range hunting of thin skinned game is the Hornady ELD-X.

Then theee is Accubond LR, Barnes LRX, and Berger VLD. A few others as well.

As far as weights, that is anybody’s guess. ELD-X only seems to be used in 178 gr for .308 but 200 and 220 also exist. 145gr seems to be the only offering for .270 and 162 and 175 for 7mm. Looks like they are all heavier for caliber weights so some experimentation would have to be done for accuracy with those different weights. I would really only be trying the 178s in a .308 though. The 220s are no doubt for more typical use in a .300 Magnum of some sort.
 
#1, you need to figure out what the impact speeds of these bullets will be at 500 yards. Then determine the minimum impact speed needed for that bullet to expand. Most bullets need a minimum of 1800 fps to expand and closer to 2000 fps is better. At 1800 fps you may get a little expansion, but not much. Other bullets need 2000-2200 fps or they behave like FMJ and don't expand at all. You can find that information on most bullet manufacturers websites. Here is an illustration with Nosler E-tips and Accubonds.

E-Tip. I wouldn't be comfortable with this bullet at 1800 fps, almost no expansion. It does better at 2000+

E-Tip-Mushrooms.jpg

Accubond

Accubond-mushrroms.jpg

Right around 500 yards is pushing the limits of a 308 to impact with enough speed with any bullet. I simply have no experience with 270, but looking at the charts most of the high BC 145-150 gr bullets will still be well over 2000 fps at 500 yards. Closer to 2200 fps compared to 1800ish for 308.

I own several 308's and it is my go-to cartridge, but I consider it a 400 yard cartridge for game. Which is about the limit of my personal comfort zone based on my skills. If I were going to shoot game at 500, and had to do it with 308 I'd be using 155 gr Lapua Scenar bullets. They are sold as a target bullet, but have proven VERY successful on game at long range. You can get almost 2000 fps impact at 500 with that bullet. Most everything else will be 150 fps slower.
 
Well, I'm going to be that guy, I'll try to be respectful. Write 500 right out of the equation. Nobody should be shooting at a 500 yard game animal unless it is previously wounded or they (the hunter) are at serious risk of starvation. Just too many variables with wind, drop, target movement, "gremlins", shooter error, etc to make an ethical shot. Don't care how good you and your gear are. I'm a high master NRA high power service rifle shooter, and a first shot 8 ring (which would be a bad wound on a mule deer) is not uncommon on the 500 and 600 yard targets at known range, in relatively controlled conditions shooting top gear, loads and bullets.

Now for 400 yards, if you and the rifle are up to it, most any of the 140 to 150 grain boat tail designs for your .270 will do the job. They are designed to expand, retain energy and reduce wind drift. The Hornady ELD-X, Nosler BT, Speer BTSP, and Hornady SST are all fine choices. I'd shy away from the 130 .270s at the edge of practical range, and the .270 will reach out a tad better than the .308, unless the .308 is the more accurate rifle inherently. If this is the case, 165-168 bullets and a good rangefinder are your answer.
 
Roamin_Wade said:
up to 500 yd shot at a Mule deer
Click to expand...

Hmm, all of the advice given went right up to the 500 yd. shot and what bullet works best. In my experience bullet failures can occur at close ranges too with high velocity cartridges like the .270. And while we all fantasize about that long shot, you are probably much more likely to get a 50 yard shot than a 500. What I am talking about is a bullet disintegrating upon impact at close range. The result is no exit wound, no blood trail, and an animal that can run quite a distance before dying. If the hunter doesnt follow up thinking that he missed, or the brush is thick, a game animal is wasted.

My personal experience is with a 25-06. One of my sons has experienced it with his .260. A couple of buddies have had it happen with .270's and .243's. My dad had it happen to him once with a .308 and 125 gr. Sierra Pro Hunter handloads.

I now use Partitions in my 25-06. My son moved up to 140's in his .260. My recommendation would be 150's, or a premium bullet in the .270. I feel that 30 caliber 150's and up have enough "critical mass" so bullet failure typically isn't an issue. I still like 165's for deer size game.
 
Random 8 said:
I'm a high master NRA high power service rifle shooter, and a first shot 8 ring (which would be a bad wound on a mule deer) is not uncommon on the 500 and 600 yard targets
Click to expand...

Every hunter is free to choose their path regarding ethical hunting within the confines of their local laws. But I don’t really see an applicable parallel between Service Rifle competition and hunting.

As reference to others who may not be as familiar with High Power competition, the 8 ring on the MR-65 and MR-1 targets used at 500 and 600 yards are 4MOA, plus bullet diameter for score. The 9 ring inside the 8 is 3MOA.

Stating first shots landing in the 8 ring is “not uncommon,” is to say those rounds are not uncommonly missing the center by at least 7.5”+1/2 bullet diameter at 500 yards, or missing center by at least 9”+1/2 bullet diameter at 600 yards.

Of course, this is a competition course of fire is shot with a Garand, M1, AR-15, or AR-10, with iron sights or magnified optics not exceeding 4.5x, fired prone either unsupported or slung, no bipod, slow fire with either 10 minutes for 10 shots, or 20 minutes for 20 shots, depending on the particular match. Most of these rifles beg for 1MOA, in my experience.

Alternatively, first round hits rule the day in Precision Rifle Competition, with target requirements to be NO GREATER THAN 2MOA for prone shooting, and NO GREATER 3MOA for positional shooting - meaning our biggest targets are equivalent to the Service Rifle 9 ring, and we’re (almost) never shooting at a target at large as the 8 ring. Missing on a 2MOA target from prone at 500-600 yards is very rare (missing by >5-6”), typically only slipped by new shooters who don’t know their rifle or load yet, or under extreme wind conditions where a long range hunter would pass on a shot anyway.

Comparatively, Precision Rifle matches are fired with bolt action rifles with unlimited magnification scopes, supported by any means the shooter prefers and can manage within the time limit, and only 90 seconds are allowed to build multiple positions and fire 8-14 rounds, more akin to a rate of fire common to Service Rifle Rapid Fire stages, rather than the 500-600yrd Slow Fire stage. Most of these rifles get rebarreled if they slip past 3/4MOA, in my experience.

I can confirm, when I was shooting Service Rifle, slipping an outside 9 or an 8 for my first round wasn’t so uncommon. I was terrible at shooting with iron sights. Remain to be so. My eyes suck and are only getting worse However, I almost can’t fathom missing a 2-3MOA target at 500-600 yards under unlimited hunting or precision rifle competition conditions, outside of ridiculous wind conditions.

Beyond the contrast between what is done with AR’s in Service Rifle vs. that done in Precision Rifle Competition is the contrast between any competition and hunting. In competition, we shoot when they tell us to shoot and in the direction they tell us to shoot, so if the wind is indecisive that day or during our flight or stage, or heavy wind value, we don’t have a choice - we shoot for score and everyone (for the most part) has the same opportunities and challenges. When hunting, it’s easy to govern yourself to only take the longer range shots during decisive winds. Would I take a 500 yard shot on a whitetail in 35-40mph full value, 45-55 gusting, falling 20-25mph winds with a 4x scope and a 77smk? Nope. But I’ve been stuck shooting in those conditions for a match - even out to 1200 with a 44mph call that day. Would I take a 500 yard shot on a whitetail in the still of the morning with a steady 6-8mph, gusting 10, falling 4mph wind in my face, which I had the power to choose because I set my stand 3 months prior in a spot which put me facing the wind when the deer walk out of the same slough each morning onto my beans.... Every day and twice on Sunday.
 
as a point of reference, i posted this 4 years ago...

the shoot for the green PRS match in Oklahoma this past weekend had an interesting stage. Four plywood deer silhouettes were positioned at different distances with an 8" circle cut out and a steel gong hung in it, representing the vital zone. Shooters had to start with the closest deer and get two hits on it before progressing to the next farthest one. Max round count was 10 rounds.

Of course, it's not a laboratory "scientific" test, but it's certainly interesting data. imho It's quite a bit easier than an actual hunt because the deer didn't move. The ranges were known. It was shot from a very stable prone position with no grass or other interference. The deer were perfectly broadside. AND you had several dozen very good shooters sharing wind calls with each other and adjusting their plans based on watching the impacts as others shot the course.

Over the day, most shooters were holding between 5-10mph wind on this stage, which is pretty dang calm for western oklahoma

The results? out of 87 shooters

17% couldn't even get 2 hits on an 8" vitals area at 425 yards with 10 tries
32% got 2 hits at 425 yards, but couldn't get 2 hits at 574 yards
44% got 2 hits at 425 and 574, but couldn't get 2 hits at 754 yards
7% got 2 hits at 425, 574 and 754, but weren't able to get 2 hits at 942 yards
0% got 2 hits on all 4 deer

Put another way,
83% hit the 425 yard deer (even though some may have taken all 10 rounds to get their 2 hits)
51% hit the 574 yard deer
7% hit the 754 yard deer
nobody hit all 4

Equally interesting, only ONE shooter in that 7% was in the top 15. i.e. the match winner only hit 2 deer. Of the 14 guys behind him, only one got 3 deer. So it isn't really the case that we should be confident that these are high percentage targets for the "best shooters"

Also, I know several shooters did take a shot at nearby rocks to get a wind call before engaging the deer targets, since you couldn't see misses on the plywood at that distance. So that strategy is factored into the results.

overall, i shot poorly, but i did get 2 hits on 3 deer but missed the 942 yard deer.
Click to expand...
 
We do a similar match in the Kansas club usually at least once a year. Terrorist head targets roughly 8x12” at every 100yrds from 300 to 900, plus 960. Progressive, hit to advance, max of 3 rounds at each distance to connect. 3pts for first round hit, 1 for 3rd. It’s set up to draw new shooters, and does, and some guys do bring out some odd stuff they wouldn’t normally shoot (I used a Grendel AR, for example, at the last one I shot), so the results are a little skewed vs. a typical match. I made it to 900 with that Grendel using factory ammo connecting first round until 700, second shot at 800, then shot a round group around the head at 900. 5 guys out of ~30 made impacts at 960, and they had to round robin until someone missed.

I haven’t seen a formal event notice out yet, and I think we have another in 2 weeks. If it goes down, I’ll see about capturing stats from the day.

Ironic, maybe, that 51% of shooters made first and second round hits at 574. Venturing the demographics at that match weren’t so different than the broad spectrum our progressive matches draw, it seems to support it’s not so terribly implausible for the average skilled and practiced shooter to connect at 500.
 
Terrorists have really fat heads. The big dog head flappers are large and they’re 6x9” lol

But no these were all long range bolt gun shooters.
 
I forget now who makes/made the targets, but yeah, they’re more generous. It’s a wide profile silhouette, with a turban on top and a large beard and part of the neck at the bottom.
 
I always thought even the 6” wide target was unrealistic because a hit in the ear really shouldn’t count. It’s unsatisfactory. Just like animal silhouettes that let you hit something in a nose or tail would be like the pic of that deer that had its lower jaw shot off. Counting a hit on the turban is a bit ridiculous
 
One of our state club ranges has a TYL rack of heads. The smallest and second smallest are actually made to be a hostage and bad guy pair - so they are the same size of head, but the “smallest” (the bad guy) has the silhouette of the “second smallest” (the hostage) cut out of it. That means the smallest is actually sort of a crescent shape, only 2” wide. In high mirage, the bad guy sliver just looks like a slightly smaller blob than the second smallest beside it, so a lot of guys don’t realize the target’s shape and hold center mass - which isn’t actually there. We usually shoot it at 400-425yrds, and finding a 2” x ~4” irregular C shaped target can be frustrating to say the least!

Gotta use something for a target, though. Different shapes present different challenges - every match you hear someone say something about how diamonds are harder than squares, or the howling coyotes are frustrating compared to the running coyotes, or how much “air” there is in the cat targets...

Of course, nobody is shooting factory loaded Partitions or Core-lokts at any of these.
 
taliv said:
as a point of reference, i posted this 4 years ago...
Click to expand...

the shoot for the green PRS match in Oklahoma this past weekend had an interesting stage. Four plywood deer silhouettes were positioned at different distances with an 8" circle cut out and a steel gong hung in it, representing the vital zone. Shooters had to start with the closest deer and get two hits on it before progressing to the next farthest one. Max round count was 10 rounds.

Of course, it's not a laboratory "scientific" test, but it's certainly interesting data. imho It's quite a bit easier than an actual hunt because the deer didn't move. The ranges were known. It was shot from a very stable prone position with no grass or other interference. The deer were perfectly broadside. AND you had several dozen very good shooters sharing wind calls with each other and adjusting their plans based on watching the impacts as others shot the course.

Over the day, most shooters were holding between 5-10mph wind on this stage, which is pretty dang calm for western oklahoma

The results? out of 87 shooters

17% couldn't even get 2 hits on an 8" vitals area at 425 yards with 10 tries
32% got 2 hits at 425 yards, but couldn't get 2 hits at 574 yards
44% got 2 hits at 425 and 574, but couldn't get 2 hits at 754 yards
7% got 2 hits at 425, 574 and 754, but weren't able to get 2 hits at 942 yards
0% got 2 hits on all 4 deer

Put another way,
83% hit the 425 yard deer (even though some may have taken all 10 rounds to get their 2 hits)
51% hit the 574 yard deer
7% hit the 754 yard deer
nobody hit all 4

Equally interesting, only ONE shooter in that 7% was in the top 15. i.e. the match winner only hit 2 deer. Of the 14 guys behind him, only one got 3 deer. So it isn't really the case that we should be confident that these are high percentage targets for the "best shooters"

Also, I know several shooters did take a shot at nearby rocks to get a wind call before engaging the deer targets, since you couldn't see misses on the plywood at that distance. So that strategy is factored into the results.

overall, i shot poorly, but i did get 2 hits on 3 deer but missed the 942 yard deer.
Click to expand...

This should be some sort of sticky, you did a great job capturing the data, conditions, and results for guys that compete regularly, and then there's the average deer hunter that doesn't get to shoot/practice past 100 yds........
 
The majority of people have no business shooting at game at 500 yards.

Can it be done? Yes it can.

Ask yourself, do you have the equipment, the solid platform needed, the skill, the correct bullet, and will you be patient enough to wait for the perfect shot opportunity?
 
Taliv said:
83% hit the 425 yard deer (even though some may have taken all 10 rounds to get their 2 hits)
51% hit the 574 yard deer
7% hit the 754 yard deer
nobody hit all 4
Click to expand...

This past weekend, our state club had the match I mentioned above, so I wanted to revisit this thread, just to provide the stats.

Match format:

“Terrorist Head” targets at every 100 yards from 300 to 900 yards, plus a 965 yard target, hit to advance, with one opportunity to buy back in (aka, miss all of that range, pay to come back in at the next range). Three chances to make an impact at 300 to 700, 5 chances to hit the 800 and 900 yard targets, then 10 rounds at the 965 target (effectively as tiebreakers). Targets are ~8x12” side profile silhouettes. 27 shooters started, 11 made it to the last round.

I’ll summarize and tabulate results below, percentages of shooters who made impacts, then percentages who made 1st round impacts. Reminding here - the buyback opportunity means farther ranges can have higher percentages than closer. “Connected” percentages, in the spirit of this thread, reflect shooters who made the impact out of the total starting shooters.

Out of 3 rounds to make a hit:
300yrds 96% connected, 81% first round
400yrds 85% connected, 56% first round
500yrds 93% connected, 63% first round
600yrds 67% connected, 22% first round
700yrds 74% connected, 22% first round

Out of 5 rounds to make 1 hit:
800yrds 59% connected, 7% first round
900yrds 19% connected, none first round

Out of 10 rounds:
965yrds 26% connected, 7% first round

In fairness, since only 11 shooters made it to the final stage, 2 first round impacts out of 11 shooters is really 18% of shooters who fired the shots, not 7%, which reflects 2 1st round impacts out of the 27 shooters who started the match, including 16 who didn’t get to attempt that final stage.

Looking at it from the other side, failures to impact at each range:

1 out of 27 failed to connect at 300
4 out of 27 failed to connect at 400
2 out of 27 failed to connect at 500
9 out of 26 failed to connect at 600
6 out of 26 failed to connect at 700
8 out of 23 failed to connect at 800
11 out of 18 failed to connect at 900
4 out of 11 failed to connect at 965

In a manner of speaking, the majority of shooters were able to make impacts out to 965yards, and a majority of shooters were able to make first round hits out to 500.
 
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