Pattern Disappointment

[littlered75]

I shot my Remington 870 PMAX on Thanksgiving and did not see much difference in the pattern of my dad's 870 cylinder bore. Should I have expexted more or is this typical? I like all the features for the PMAX with the ghost ring sights, parkarized finish and flashlight, but was hoping for a tighter pattern. I also put on a single point attachment mount and two side saddles from Mesa Tactical (awesome products).

 

[Bix]

Try a variety of loads - you'll almost surely find one that your barrel likes.

 

[littlered75]

Have you heard of Vangcomp? They claim their work on the 870 make it pattern tighter than anyone else. The pattern they show on their website is almost unbelievable. I will try some different ammo. Thanks.

 

[sm]

Not uncommon - actually very common.

Art & Science as Brister shared, describes shotgunning.

Need more information please to assist on this patterning.

Each gun has its preferences to load it prefers, at various distances. For instance, a different load in your gun may produce tighter, denser patterns, and in another gun "blow" the pattern.

Not knowing the constrictions of PMAX or if the other gun is bone stock, fixed choke barrel, screw in choke and if so what kind, any forcing cone work...



I had a 870 Wingmaster , 2 3/4" only chamber , with 28" plain fixed modified barrel I picked up for $85. Mistreated, dinged, banged, and obviously used a lot,rode in a gun rack of a farm/ranch truck, and who knows what all.

Awesome patterns / groups this gun shot. I mean one fellow paid $200 for barrel work and screw in chokes, and my "damn ugly" shotgun shot better patterns. Another fellow paid monies to shoot slugs well out of his already too expensive , famous gunsmith name shotgun, again, my ugly gun shot better groups.
Add another fellow sold his name brand special shotgun with all the bell's and whistles, because not only would his "tricked out like you are supposed to have" shotgun not run - it patterned poorly with pellet and slugs.

Heck My bone stock NEF Youth 20 ga, with plain Mod fixed choke barrel has ticked off a LOT of folks, with its patterns, and slug groups.

I have alway said, and there are a few out there, a 20" fixed choke "modified" barrel is THE ticket for a general purpose, Serious Shotgun.
One reason I get ticked at these longer barrels getting whacked, no choke.

I do know, a 20" with the correct forcing cone, and with Skeet II (.12) - Mod (.19) [between .12 and .19 constrictions, depending on bore diameter, and forcing cone set up] will kick butt, take names and outdo a lot of the tricked out out super duper set ups one can get. Using easy to get ammo, off the shelf, and with Brenneke's - damn thing is like a sniper slug gun.

I do know a Benelli was sold ( boy did he make out like a bandit getting out from under this thing ).
Using a OLD 2 3/4 chamber only 870 stolen for what she paid for it, a lady is putting together a SG for her hubby , like hers, in 20 ga to replace it.
It will have a 20-21" barrel and external knurled choke ~ 15 POC, testing will get the tweak just right. Oh she paid $110 for this old WM 870, with a full choke plain barrel a person shot with mud in the barrel and cracked the last few inches of muzzle. Barrel is fine - it will be totally awesome when finished with a oversized front bead on its plain barrel. *grin*

I've got a $1 bet, it shoots the best with Federal 9 pellet 00 buck and Fed 1oz slugs. No takers on my betting what it will do with Brenneke's. *smirk*

Art & Science - and a lot of us never forget this, and a lot of us do not want the new guns, the old ones have some Art & Science the new ones do not have.

It really really ticks off a guy when you stick a $8 Mod Winchoke into a 1300 and it out patterns with pellets a famous makers shotgun set up.
Double ticked is when you stick a $8 WinChoke into a 1400 and it does the same thing, and the gun runs, and the Benelli would not run, or pattern.

Folks sold these 1300 and 1400 to get a better gun, and they offered more money that sold to get them back. No dice - go play Team Walrus with cool pose and load upside down for pictures it was implied.

Difference in Shotgunners and those that collect shotguns for show and tell.

 

[littlered75]

My pmax is has the factory improved cylinder. The work done by Vangcomp would be about $240. I need to take the time and do a complete pattern firing session with different ammo before I do anything drastic. I just thought it would be tighter than the cylinder bore.

 

[JohnBT]

There's just not that much difference in CYL and IC - 10 thousandths is all in a 12 ga. and manufacturing tolerances can throw that off. Like Steve said, try different ammo.

Standard Choke Constrictions in Inches
(From Briley)
Cylinder .000"
Light Skeet .003"
Skeet .005"
Improved Skeet .007"
Improved Cylinder .010"
Light Modified .015"
Modified .020"
Improved Modified .025"
Light Full .030"
Full .035"
Extra Full .040"
Super Full .050"

 

[littlered75]

What choke would you recommend for hd and a little hunting and skeet? I was on the remington le website and could not find a modified choke 18 inch barrel. How is Hornady ammo, I know the Federal stuff is better than my S&B ammo?

 

[Fred Fuller]

l,

Find yourself a few boxes of either Hornady or Federal loadings which use the FliteControl wad. If that doesn't give you patterns you're happy with, then consider altering the barrel's internal geometry.

lpl/nc

 

[Bix]

Littlered-

As others here have suggested, focus on ammunition, rather than choke.

The Hornady TAP ammo is excellent at producing small patterns. I've seen a box distributed down the line at a shotgun class, and it shrunk the patterns in each gun it went through. I've personally found that the Federal LE133 patterns much tighter out of my IC 870 barrel than does the S&B 12 pellet - - but the TAP rounds are even better.

 

[littlered75]

Thanks for the help. I am a stockpiler and would also like it to pattern well with the cheap stuff. Plus with the new shift of power I want to buy as much as I can now.

 

[sm]

That short mod barrel is rare. Folks are having qualified gunsmiths make them.

Lee is correct, internal geometry is a huge key in all this Art & Science.

Sad to to say, a lot of the new geometry is about marketing and hype. Just as a lot of firearm related things are. Some of the new geometry will only work "pretty good" with one type of ammo, and that is it. The whole versatility of the gun, ammo, loads is not there. For a card shooter, or slug bulls-eye shooter, this is fine, a specialized sport.

The best kept secret is still a bone stock shotgun, that fits the shooter, with the correct basic fundamentals. Always has been, always will be. Anything from Serious Situations, hunting, clay games, moving or stationary targets - can be done with one. All one does is tweak fit, get lessons, and allow pattern board to reveal what that gun, likes for what tasks. External knurled chokes just allow more fine tuning.

One reason my go-to gun, is a single shot I mentioned earlier. Personally, the more hype I read on Internet, the more I stay with bone stock. I'd actually like to go to using nothing but a 20ga two barrel gun, SXS like a 311 with fixed chokes.

I know of 4 Benellis, 2 11-87 Police set ups, 8 Wilson Combat, 3 Vang Comp - about a dozen Benelli Nova shotguns - sold. Just had to have, then once rec'd
Tested, tried and ... - owners went back to what works. FWIW 7 of the Nova's - I broke these, and one I broke twice, got it back, next broke it again, and back it went again.
Glocks do not like me either...
I know one person that used a funky sling set up and had to see the doctor as that heavy gun, hit him in privates, actually a bit of concern , when doing some Team Walrus maneuver...

My "tricked out" sling I used for my SX1 is missing. Leather Latigo if you will, just woven brown leather, round, and about the diameter of a peppermint stick. Fixed at mag cap and buttstock. Also missing is a similar one, that slip knotted over barrel and pistol grip of shotgun. I used this one for rifles too.

Quiet, enough weight to flip on, off, over head, still not heavy enough to have "pendulum effect".

My "trick" sling set up used on some other guns were Pachmayr Flush Mount Sling Swivels
http://www.lymanproducts.com/pachmayr/index.htm

I really really really like these!
I have some folks when they get ready are going to put these on shotguns, and rifles.

I understand they have indoor plumbing, and electricity now-a-days ...