Paul Harrell: Using a car as cover

[old lady new shooter]

Right I was sleepy when my brain freezed.

 

[Howland937]

Interesting. The thing is, aren’t the pillars slim on many vehicles?

Most everything is thin and flimsy on modern automobiles. The pillars themselves are structurally rigid, but dimensionally not that wide. If you think of it in terms of layers added together, more layers equals better protection. Like Mr. White said, the more vehicle you can put between yourself and trouble, the better it'll provide what cover it's capable of.
It also creates more distance in general, which seems like a good idea to me.

 

[JeffG]

I attended more than one training on gunfighting in and around vehicles, as I am sure many of you have. I have shot into, out of through the glass and doors, through cars and SUVs. Modern vehicles, by and large, are hugely deficient as cover. The most common pistols will shoot through the doors and glass. AR15s with common ammunition have a high likelihood of penetrating lengthwise, engine or not. Hiding behind alloy wheels and brake assembles that are less than 10 inches across, is problematic at best; if you have to touch the ground, a skipped bullet puts you down. If you are moving, accelerate and exit the kill zone. If you are using a vehicle for concealment, stay hidden from view, and move to a better source of concealment or cover.

 

[armoredman]

Watch the 80s movie Deadly Weapons for old school vehicle penetration testing. Even the older cars weren't all that good at stopping bullets. Plus a lot of modern aluminum block engines are small...gimme a BIG V8 to hide behind, if I absolutely have to. Amazing how many things bullets will go right through...

 

[herrwalther]

My only experience has been fighting around armored vehicles. 1151 Humvees, MATV and Cougar MRAPs. Those work great at stopping bullets and even large explosions. I am not going to put the same trust in a stock sedan.

 

[lemaymiami]

When rounds are incoming and a vehicle is your only cover - it's both some protection and a trap... We were taught in survival training as cops that going to ground with a vehicle as some protection might be okay for a moment - but the quicker you found a better position - the better off you'd be... In incident after incident cops in real life situations had bad outcomes when they hunkered down behind a vehicle and allowed an assailant to maneuver on your known position. Something to consider if you're ever under assault in or around a car...
Like most cops I had more than enough training on shooting from a barricaded position in my entire career - but there are better tactics than being in a known position... I'm long out of that world and hope I never have to be in it again...

 

[theotherwaldo]

Grandpa was a bootlegger back in central Alabama. Dad ran a jammer car to protect the runners that carried the shine.
The jammers were mostly Dodge coupes on Dodge pick-up chassis with frames and bumpers reinforced with mine-car rail stock, concrete and chicken wire in the fenders and boiler plate in the firewall, trunk and doors.

The runners were mostly big-bodied sedans that had beefed suspensions and minimal armor (mostly in the doors and behind the driver's seat). Some had multiple gas tanks to hold the shine, but most were gutted to hold barrels and boxed bottles.
The armor in both of these types of outlaw Dodges were usually enough to stop most gunfire, though helmets and goggles were usually a good idea,

I saw the remains of some similar cars much later behind the Paradise Ranch on Monument Drive near Merlin, Oregon.
Apparently, the bootleggers dumped these shot-up wrecks after they started an airport just behind the ranch and didn't need to carry their booze on the surface streets anymore.

By the way, the Paradise Ranch is now a resort, the airport now serves the whole county, and the monument on Monument Drive is in memory of some Revenuers that got shot to doll-rags when they messed with the bootleggers... .

 

[eddiememphis]

Grandpa was a bootlegger back in central Alabama. Dad ran a jammer car to protect the runners that carried the shine.
The jammers were mostly Dodge coupes on Dodge pick-up chassis with frames and bumpers reinforced with mine-car rail stock, concrete and chicken wire in the fenders and boiler plate in the firewall, trunk and doors..

Fascinating! I can imaging the late night sessions building these tanks.

When was this? I am guessing the 20's and 30's?

Were they playing hide and seek with local police or the feds?

 

[theotherwaldo]

Mostly late 30's through '49. That's when Dad got in enough trouble to have to join the Marines.
Most of the folks that they were arguing with were the competition, who kept trying to hijack the loads.
They rarely had trouble with the cops - as long as they kept getting their free samples and occasional payoffs.
It helped that Grandpa was hooked up with the Allison boys over in Georgia and eastern Tennessee.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

It's really not complicated, drivetrain (engine/trans), pillars and wheels are your main cover around a vehicle. That's the easy part.

Being able to effectively use them can be the tricky part.

 

[shafter]

Vehicles are very poor at providing cover, if you have to use it either use it to get away or get as much of it between you and the threat as possible. Bullets do weird things and even flimsy cover might deflect or break up a round.

Generally there is much better cover and concealment not very far away from wherever you find a vehicle. I would recommend using that.

 

[herrwalther]

When rounds are incoming and a vehicle is your only cover - it's both some protection and a trap... We were taught in survival training as cops that going to ground with a vehicle as some protection might be okay for a moment - but the quicker you found a better position - the better off you'd be... In incident after incident cops in real life situations had bad outcomes when they hunkered down behind a vehicle and allowed an assailant to maneuver on your known position. Something to consider if you're ever under assault in or around a car...
Like most cops I had more than enough training on shooting from a barricaded position in my entire career - but there are better tactics than being in a known position... I'm long out of that world and hope I never have to be in it again...

The take away I got from Mr. Harrell is cars are better than nothing. But not much better. If a car is all I have for cover, that is what I am going to use. Move to something better, end the fight, or escape.

 

[GEM]

Took a Dave Spaulding car course. Shot from cars, into cars, bailed out of cars, etc. Shot under cars to skip a round into targets (recall the bullet just skims the ground). Except for the engine, rounds zipped through most of the cars. The only funny thing was a 12 gauge slug that hit a bar in the door and went straight down into the ground. Wouldn't count on that though.

Getting out of the car and on to the gravel ground bruises up the old forearms. Lots of multicolored bruises to explain at work. Also, not fun for what Dave called the Beefalos! Sigh.

 

[MrChicken]

My two cents is that if you must use a vehicle for cover, use one that belongs to somebody else.

On a serious note a car battery will stop a 41 magnum JSP cold when shot side to side.

 

[Chuck R.]

Took a Dave Spaulding car course. Shot from cars, into cars, bailed out of cars, etc. Shot under cars to skip a round into targets (recall the bullet just skims the ground). Except for the engine, rounds zipped through most of the cars. The only funny thing was a 12 gauge slug that hit a bar in the door and went straight down into the ground. Wouldn't count on that though.

Getting out of the car and on to the gravel ground bruises up the old forearms. Lots of multicolored bruises to explain at work. Also, not fun for what Dave called the Beefalos! Sigh.

I took one Spaulding's Vehicular Combative classes a few years ago:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/aar-vehicular-combatives-with-dave-spaulding.826272/

It really was a great class!

 

[Autodidactic]

Took a Dave Spaulding car course. Shot from cars, into cars, bailed out of cars, etc. Shot under cars to skip a round into targets (recall the bullet just skims the ground). Except for the engine, rounds zipped through most of the cars. The only funny thing was a 12 gauge slug that hit a bar in the door and went straight down into the ground. Wouldn't count on that though.

Getting out of the car and on to the gravel ground bruises up the old forearms. Lots of multicolored bruises to explain at work. Also, not fun for what Dave called the Beefalos! Sigh.

Interesting!

 

[Autodidactic]

Vehicles are very poor at providing cover, if you have to use it either use it to get away or get as much of it between you and the threat as possible. Bullets do weird things and even flimsy cover might deflect or break up a round.

Generally there is much better cover and concealment not very far away from wherever you find a vehicle. I would recommend using that.

Right I think the idea is just if that’s the only cover one has while taking fire, then it’s important to know what will or won’t provide some measure of protection. I watched yet another movie this last week where someone was taking cover from automatic fire behind a car door.

 

[Palladan44]

Cars are coffins.
While still rolling, they make for a good counter ambush/escape tool...remember in an attack, robbery, or a "crime against your person" to use the car if you can.....sometimes our instincts tell us to STOP....gotta train against those instincts....see lots of video evidence where an evasion with the vehicle was the best possible option, just because they're might not be time for anything else...
.......Harrels car there looks out of commish.

Remember to keep your EDC on your person, so you can escape the coffin and still be armed!
(I admit to occasionally taking it off and stowing it when travelling, and I know im wrong in doing so) That creates a potential "double hazard".

Lots of deseased never did escape the car, good guys, bad guys and LE alike. They're concealment, but not great cover.
Hats off to the ASP guys for providing valuable video evidence based- SD information to help get the good word out there.

 

[theotherwaldo]

You can get enough level IIIA kevlar panels to line a car door for around $500.00.
Not that big of a deal if you worry about such things.
(Maybe I spent too long in South Central Los Angeles... .)

 

[Palladan44]

You can get enough level IIIA kevlar panels to line a car door for around $500.00.
Not that big of a deal if you worry about such things.
(Maybe I spent too long in South Central Los Angeles... .)

Hopefully not in an automobile with side airbags...the coroner would have a good story there.

 

[theotherwaldo]

All of my vehicles are at least old enough to vote.
Side air bags are not a concern... .

 

[fastbolt]

Knowing that a standard car door provides virtually no ballistic protection, Ive often wondered if any LE agencies at least put a plate inside the drivers door shell for cover during a traffic stop. Wouldn't cost that much and would seem to be a fairly easy install.

This is why using veh doors opened so they present an angled surface to incoming rounds is often taught/used. The angled surface may not only have the potential to hopefully deflect rounds (both on the outside skin and when encountering the inside structures), but can also help create a situation where a bullet has to travel through "more" door material due to the presentation angle. Keeping the feet and lower legs inside the veh can also help prevent them from catching rounds passing below the door.

Rounds skipped underneath a veh are also a significant threat.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Hopefully not in an automobile with side airbags...the coroner would have a good story there.

Wouldn't interfere with SAB deployment- those are mounted in the side of the seatback.

However, many modern cars have either piezo or air pressure impact sensors inside the door shell, so you gotta be careful not to damage them and carefully reinstall all the seals correctly. And of course, make sure the battery is disconnected before poking around near any SRS sensors or modules- basically anything with bright yellow wiring harnesses or connectors.

 

[Waveski]

My preference is to be in the driver's seat departing the area of conflict at a high rate of speed.