Pedersoli SXS Shotgun

[loose noose]

Got my SXS percussion shotgun yesterday in the mail. Looks pretty good, it was all assembled in the rough. The barrels are a really neat polished dark blue, all that had to be done was put the bead sights on it. The side plates are color cased blue and look pretty good also. I'm gonna have to polish and blue the ornates on it ( including steel butt plate), and do a lot of sanding on the stock, (nice piece of European Walnut) other than that it should be a breeze. BTW it has chrome lined barrels, which should make cleaning it relatively easy. Thank God for Dixie Gun Works. So far it looks like a top quality piece, as soon as I get started I'll get some pics up.

 

[Packman]

Pics, man! With my howdah enroute, I'm drooling for a range trip. I have long desired, and will one day have and SxS scattergun. Hopefully in both cartridge and muzzleloading form.

 

[loose noose]

Here are the pics I promised earlier, Sorry 'bout doing the stock before hand, in fact that pic doesn't do the stock justice, as it was pretty rough before I started sanding, went from 100-400 grit paper before I stained it. The barrel was allready done all I had to do was install the bead sights, as you can see I've got some polishing to do on the metal parts before bluing them. The first pic shows a different shade of the color of the stain, I used a Mini Wax Special Wlanut, of which it is gonna need another coat. Once the thing is complete I'll provide a few more pics.

 

[loose noose]

Well I've just about got the SXS ready to reassemble with all the bluing done, and the final coat of handrubbed oil on the stock stand-by for some pics, before long. This was one of the easiest BP kits I've ever done.

 

[Patocazador]

Where did you get the kit and how much $$$? I'd like to try to put one together if I can afford it?

 

[Jaymo]

What gauge is it?

 

[loose noose]

I paid $695.00 for it at Dixie Gun Works came to $711.95 with shipping and handling, BTW it is a "12 ga. magnum" guess because it has chrome lined bores. However on the barrel it states to shoot BP in 89 grains in 1 1/4 oz shot. In fact that is the only warning on the barrels, not like some other kits that I had to spend hours on polishing out the "read owners manual before shooting" and "Use Black Powder or equivalent Only". Matter of fact I'm getting ready to assemble the arm here shortly, and I'll post some pics.

 

[Patocazador]

Thanks for the info.

A local gunsmith said he'd make me a side x side for $3000. I got weak-kneed and had to sit down.

 

[loose noose]

Below are the photos I told ya would be forth coming, not too bad as far as the wood to metal fit etc. The bluing doesn't do the gun justice. Tomorrow I'm gonna take it out and pattern it and see how she performs.

 

[Patocazador]

Very nice. It looks quite handsome.

 

[loose noose]

Thank ya Patocazador, I took it out and patterned it this morning, the left barrel shoots a lot tighter than the right barrel, as I believe the left is Improved Cylinder, and the right is cylinder. I did all the patterning at 25 yards using 1 1/8 oz of number 8 shot. The right barrel shoots a horseshoe type pattern, however the left barrel shoots a nice dense pattern with 90% within a 30" circle. The right places about 60% in a 30" circle. I shot some trap from a Trius One Step trap thrower. With the left barrel I could get 20/25, however with the right barrel 15/25. Note I was a AA trap shooter, with my Browning BT99. I didn't try any shotcups in that muzzleloader; only the 1/8" wad over the powder, followed by a 1/2" felt wad then the shot, and a thin 1/16" white over shot wad. Any ideas on how to tighten the pattern, would be greatly appreciated.

 

[pohill]

Before the cold weather came, I was experimenting with my SXS muzzleloading 10 ga. From what I read (and tried), to tighten the pattern, use less powder, more shot (instead of equal amounts of each)

 

[Doak]

Does this make any sense? Back when they were called "fowlers", gunmakers made them to fit the height of each customer. It's still important, today, to have the muzzle(s) as high as one's Adam's apple, when standing. So that one's not bent over, looking down the bore(s), while loading. 42'' barrels were kinda "one size fits all"?
Consequentlly, most fowlers had much longer barrels than today's "shotguns", that load from the breech.
Fowlers had no chokes. The barrels were long enuff that bore pressure dropped off by the time the shot reached the muzzle. The shot "settled" before exiting. There was no high pressure "muzzle blast" to disperse the shot, like there is w/smokeless.
Could this be why reduced powder in shorter barrels allows the shot to stay "settled"?
Fowlers, since they had no choke, also shot patched balls, for big game.

 

[Patocazador]

I know nada about muzzleloading shotguns but assume that using shotcups (power pistons)should hold the shot together longer thus giving it less time to disperse. That should contribute to tighter patterns.
Maybe I'm missing something but it makes sense to me.

 

[loose noose]

I'll have to try using less powder, as I've been using a scoop that dispenses 1 1/8 oz of shot and the the powder is measured from the same container. I haven't tried the 1 1/4 oz. of shot yet. That will be my next outing. I'm pretty happy with the left barrel putting right at 90% in the 30" circle, however the horseshoe shaped pattern just don't cut it.

 

[rifle]

Muzzle-loader shotguns do seem topattern better with longer barrels. The older muzzleloader doubles almost always had longer barrels than the Pedersoli doubles.
Some think ther longer barrels of the old guns were that way to let all the powder burn before the barrels ended. Not logical since powder burns,they say, in 18 inches or so. I say the longer barrels gave better patterns from the pressure being less at the end of a longer barrel letting the shot ,sorta, free fly as it entered air space from enertia being overcome and the weight.
Some figure the "jug chokes" are like modern chokes too. The jug choke being an area near the muzzle but just before it where the diameter was wide compared to the rest of the bore. Some figured the shot pattern spread in the wide area and then was tightened back by the less diameter muzzle.Not logical to me.
The wide area of the jug choke ,I figure, let pressure blow by the shot column/load chain so when the load chain got to the muzzle the gas didn't have as much pressure and didn't "blow the pattern" as much as without the pressure relieving jug choke.The lesser diameter at the muzzle very well could have tightened the pattern by forcing the shot closer together after the wide part of the jug choke spread it but the relief of pressure is the key clue that most miss.
The pressure pushes the wads behind the shot into the middle of the shot group and makes donut type patterns especially with the over shot card interrupting the pattern also from the front of it.
That may be why the Pedersoli shotguns have a comb a little too high. That makes a shotgun shoot high with the cheek on the stock ,as is done by any shotgun shooter who knows how to point, and the front sight needs raised to see it and get it on target. That makes the bead be raised and shoots the pattern a little high.
Well ,with that scenario the donut pattern of the muzzleloader shotgun is always hitting the target with the bottom of the shot pattern where there are more shot than in the middle of the pattern.
Pedersoli used to describe the double as meant to shoot at rising birds. That's what gave me a clue ,years ago, about why the comb on every Pedersoli double I've owned had the comb of the stock too high and the guns shot high.( I've lowered the combs on a couple of double Pedersoli shotguns as well as the corresponding butt plate)
A gun that shoots high lets one point the bead "right at" a rising bird and have the lead there with the gun shooting high. Know what I mean? Shoot right at the rising bird without figuring a lead becuase the high comb makes the gun shoot high. It's hard to remember to always shoot low at something tracking horizontally and not vertically.
Good way to improve the efficiency of a gun that shoots bad patterns because of it's design and shoot high all thentime ....... just shoot high,low,left, or right of the target and the best part of the pattern hits the target with the most shot. The worst part of the pattern being in the middle of it. ha ha ha ha ha
The only way I've managed to tighten the patterns of the short barreled Pedersoli shotguns is to use more shot compared to the powder. You know,how they say a good starting point is equal volume of shot compared to powder?
I use more shot than powder. I don't raise the powder amount over what I like to shoot. I just use more shot.
You don't need to use "more shot" since you can use "heavier shot". A size up from what you use. The heavier shot is more reluctant to move as much as it enters free air space with the wads pushing into the shot group from behind and the over shot wad disrupting it from the front.
Some say that using "steel shot" really tightens the patterns. Shooting geese and ther like at longer ranges. The Pedersoli shotguns with the chromelined bores can handle steelshot. Naturally with steelshot you may have to use a shot size bigger than what you shoot but.....that is what cartridge shotguns do with steelshot. The muzzleloader shotguns may do well using steel shot the same size as what you use naturally and not a size larger. Know what I mean?
I had a 10 gauge Pedersoli that shot terrible with everything but.....two wool wads on the powder and two wool wads on the shot. If I used just one wool wad over the shot the patterns were terrible. It had to be two wool wads over the shot.
I think the velosity would be less with just wool wads since the gases would not be sealed anywhere as well as with over the powder wads and fiber cushion wad. As it was with just the wool wads over the powder and the shot I could shoot a rabbit at 10 to 20 paces and not blow it to hell with too much shot. Good fer eatin yer game. Short range doubles have their place since game can show upclose to the hunter all the time.
The use of the double Pedersoli "Turkey and Trap" both full choked barrels can shoot some good patterns with the normal load chain of powder/ovr powder card/fiber cushion wad/shot/ thin over shot card. My brother can shoot at rabbits and knock them down out to 40 yards with his. I recommend the "Turkey and Trap" barrels but......the price of them is out of this world. Worth the money if you have it though.
I got good patterns with a 12 gauge Pedersoli I once had with the use of quite a bit "extra" shot when using no. 6 or no. 7 shot fer rabbit and dove and squirrel. I had to cut back on the shot I loaded to test pattern since at 20 paces the pattern was so tight it would have ruined any game I shot at at that distance.
I've had some good patterns with the short barreled Pedersoli guns using a lot of shot to get turkey at a max of 25 paces.
I've improved patterns by using the cork wads over the shot and punching the center out of them with a 1/2 inch punch and......over the shot slip in a "cork ring" and then a "square of paper" ( just the right size to push down on the cork ring and lay flat over the big hole in the ring) and then another "cork ring".
I used a little extra shot and got better patterns.
Neve got any good patterns using regular shot wads like used in cartridge shotshells. I thunk they tumble in flight before all the shot is out of them and the over the shot card disrupts the pattern also.
I built a single barrel muzzleloader shotgun fer my brother using a 36 inch mod. choked barrel and......it gets a good pattern with everything I stuffed into it except.....too much powder. It likes Fg black powder.
Fg powder works good in shotguns because of a slower burn and less pressure, I thunk, and it's a given known that Fg powder works good in shotguns.
If people don't believe that longer shotgun barrels on muzzleloader shotguns work well because of the "less pressure" at the muzzle blowing the patterns then this little tidbit may clear it up..................
Back in the day there were shotgun competitions using long barreled shotguns shooting at paper pads that were something like 8X8 inches from the distance of.......100 YARDS. Yes that's right I said 100 YARDS. The game was to penetrate the pad of paper the furthest with the most shot pellets.
Some of the shotgun barrels used were "over" eight feet long. They didn't use those long barrels to "burn all the powder(" as some "experts" believe or claim a long barrel is used for) but ,I figure, to use all the pressure before the shot entered free air space.
Same type illogic that people use to reason the "jug chokes" in muzzleloader shotguns are for compacting the shot group after it spreads in the wide part of the choke and then enters the less wide part of the choke I figure they are "guessing "wrong. Even in the old days they didn't know why jug chokes worked. They discovered them by mistake and didn't understand what they did. Even when cartridge shotguns first used chokes they didn't know exactly why they worked. The choke in a muzzleloader shotgun is a different animal than the chokes used in modern cartridge shotguns. Modern shotguns use wads that contain the shot with no over the shot cards to disrupt the patterns and....the shot flys free with no push from behind since the shot cups open and slow like a parachute and leave the patterns alone. I believe all the chokes in modern shotguns do is....slow the plastic shotcups down a milli-second to let the shot and it's inertia carry the shot pattern unmolested by any push from behind by the wad that seals the gases to get the velosity up.
Logically one would thunk a plastic shotcup used in shotgun shells would improve patterns in muzzleloaders but I haven't seen that in my attempts.
I did get a very very tight pattern from a shotcup once when testing. It was a shot cup with o slits and the user cut the slits nto make petals fer the plastic wads. Slits ddin't improve anything so.....I tried no slits in the shot cup wads. That made the best pattern I ever got. Why?
I'll tell yas. All the shot stayed in the plastic shot cup and shot one 12 gauge hole in the pattern paper from 40 yards. The shot stayed in the plastic shot cup and just made a "big bullet" that went thru the paper all together. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Anywhoooo...if all you get from this is the fact you have to experiment with yer shot patterns to find the one yer shotgun likes since ,even though all the same, the guns are indivduals and they all seem to like a particular load chain and you need to find what it is by trial and error.
Don't be afraid to experiment.
Too bad that it isn't feasible to make jug chokes in a Pedersoli double shotgun because of the chrome lined bores......or is it?
Hope this helps someone. I type like a turtle in the cold weather. SLOW.

 

[loose noose]

rifle, I plan on using it for quail out here in Nevada, and maybe a few dove. If I get out to S. Dakota maybe a few pheasant, doubt seriously I'll be using it for Geese or Turkey. Also when you used that plastic shotcup (wad) did you use a a cork or an over powder wad below the plastic shotcup? I used a plastic shotcup over an over powder wad in an older single barrel muzzleloader 12ga. and it seemed to shoot a much tighter pattern. Now that was from a cylinder bored 28" barrel. This SXS has 28" also. My other SXS, that a sold, had 32" barrels modified and improved clylinder, and I'm right sorry I ever got rid of that smokepole.

 

[pohill]

Another great post by Rifle. Your explanations save me alot of googling for info.

 

[loose noose]

rifle, I did appreciate you're advice on each shotgun has a personality all its own, and you're other tidbits of advice, such as jug chokes and length of barrels. However, when you have a tightly choked barrel how do ya get the wads down the muzzle end of the barrel without deforming them? I remember the other double I had, that had a modified and improved cylinder bore that the modified barrel was a real pain trying to get the wad started, allthough once it was loaded shot a really nice pattern.

 

[Jefferson Herb]

sxs

I turn the wads and start at an angle then use ramrod to center.Since I only use black,I don't use plastic wads[they melt unless protected]and usw wool /felt.
In an article Mr Shotgun [now passed] he just used over the powder wads.Two over powder and one over shot,everyone likes something different.
I use 1000+ and sweet oil for soaking felt wads to keep residue soft , I also use cheapest black available.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I use the wads myself. Wad over the powder. 1/2 a wad over the shot. I use a fluffy full length shotgun mop (its like a giant fluffy 12 ga cleaning rod, you can still put jags/brushes in the tip but the WHOLE rod is fluffy. Cleans those barrels lickety split.)

Hunting with a short barreled black powder shotgun isn't easy.

Don't tape your plastic wads they turn into glaser slugs.

A few people suggested cigarette paper to ennclose shot in a cup, I was never dextreous enough to make that work.

Bottom of the barrels on my Pedersoli has a suggested loading in ounces of shot and grains of powder.

 

[StrawHat]

V. M. Starr wrote this a while ago but it is still spot on.

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html

 

[rifle]

I've turned my wads sideways to start them in then level them with the ramrod and seat them. The cushipon wads with lube saturated in them can get messy stuffun them in. There are 13ga. wads and I got those to get in easier.Then make sure the over shot wad is 12ga. size to hold the shot in.
I tried the plastic shot cups like I use fer re-loading once fired shot shells.
I never got any improvements in patterns with those. I thunk they tumble in the air before all the shot is out if them.
Whenever I read the V.M. Starr stuff all I get from it that helps is the thought that he shot old originals and they always had longer barrels than what we get our hands on today with the new doubles. The barrels should be at least 36 inches I'd say to get better patterns.
The single barreled shotgun I helped my brother get together(I did the work and he watched........sometimes ha ha ha ) had the Melot 36 inch barrel with the mod.choke at the muzzle. I could get good turkey loads(have to be dense patterns to hit the turkeys little head) out of that barrel by simply upping the amount of shot some. Last turkey I got with it was at 32 long paces and it wacked that tom right down with just the regular over the powder card and then the fiber cushion wad saturated with lube some and then the shot and then the over the shot wad thin "cork"card. All 12 ga. size since the wads went in easy enough. I used a 3 dram load of powder and about 1 1/2 oz. of shot. Didn't hurt anything.
Frankly speaking and referring to the short barrels doubles we have to put up with.......I figure the best way to get good patterns that rival a shot shell breech loader would be to .......take the over powder card and cushion wad behind the shot load and the over shot card out of the equation. The wads behind push thru the load chain and the card in front help spread the shot load into donut patterns .......once the shot is entering free air space with no barrel walls to support it.
Ya like....waaaaaa daaaaa heck is he sayin????? No wads to push from behind and no over the shot card?????? Impossible to load that way unless the barrels are kept vertical and the game is right straight over head to be able to shoot straight up. ha ha ha ha
I thunk it can be done. How?
I think using something like a SABOT to hold the shot in the gun that is split in two halves with each end closed and open in between the ends to make space for the shot. Make the front two halves that close up the front with a hollow bowl type front to the sabot so the wind will get in the front end bowl and open the sabot and let the shot fly free like a breech loader shot column does once the sabot opens and slows the wads behind the shot and opens the front that holds the shot in the gun. Trick would be gettin the two halves filled with the shot load and together to stick in the gun. I figure doing the shot load in the two helves would be done "in"a bowl of shot to fill each half and get them together and held that way with rubber bands or ties till it's stuffed in the bore when loadin the gun.
I've make the sabot out of wood like balsa wood and hollow the two halves leavin some at the ends to hold the shot in the hollow sabot. Maybe the balsa wood would just break up when the charge was fired and that would be better yet maybe.
Maybe it would take hard wood to make a sabot if balsa wood is too soft. Might be the best way yet to improve muzzleloader patterns.
I plan on trying that and if it works I'll patent the idea and manufacture the things and get rich. ha ha ha ha Who knows....might be a good idea.
One other idea I want to try is to make a roll or tube of wool felt so the shot is inside the roll of felt.....just one piece that lines the diameter of the barrels bore. Have a felt or cork wad clued to the front and rear but......only clued half way around the wads so when the roll with the ends closed with the wads glued only half way around to the felt roll liner in the barrel......the whole thing blows out the barrel and unrolls and the ends that are wads get out of the way of the shot when glued half way around them and.....the rear end of the roll with a wad glued hampers the over powder wads from blowing thru the shot and making the donut pattern. It would be like a wool felt barrel liner just long enough to hold the right amount of shot and open up once it's out the barrel and let the shot load free fly without the wads behind and the wads in front messing up the pattern of shot load. Like a rolled sabot that opens in the air and lets the shot free fly like a modern shot shell does....lets the shot free fly once it's out the barrel.
Whatta ya Hombres thunk???? Think something like these ideas would make a totally different way toload muzzleloader shotguns and get great patterns????
Thunk I could get rich if I don't tell anyone bout the ideas and patent them????
Don't tell anyone you guys..... alright? I'd like to get rich offa one of my ideas afore I go pushin up daiseys.
If someone like Ballistics products made a plastic shot cup that was split like the petals of a modern shot cup but.......had the ends folded at 90 degrees and over lapped to hold the shot in the gun and this shot cup was sorta flat and greased so the rear was round like a regular shot cup once stuffed in the bore and the petals of the shot cup closed when pushed in the bore and the whole thing was springy enough to open and get sorta flat once out of the bore the thing would open and let the shot free fly without the wads behind or in front to hamper the shot pattern. The opened shot cup would get sorta flat once it springs open and slows the over powder wad and cushion wad so as not to blow a donut pattern from behind in the shot charge.
That would work I'd say. The operator loadin the gun would stuff the thing almost all the way in the bore with a smaller than bore size tube stuck in the folded plastic shot cup that pushed it in the gun and.....lets the operator pour shot in the folded/in the bore shot cup as the tube is withdrawn and the shot cups folded at 90 degrees ends close the front and then the whole thing is pushed down the bore with the shotgun type ramrod. The tube to push it in the bore and pour shot in it to fill it could have a funnel type end fer pouring in the shot and pushin the folded shot cup in the gun.
It's just a thought I guess I'll test and when it works I'll patent that too and get even richer. Don't tell anyone bout this Hombres. Alright?
It's just a matter of problem solving. The problem.....wads behind and in front of the shot load disrupts the shot load once in the air and blows the patterns to hell. Solution.......get rid of the wads behind and in front to let the shot charge free fly once out the end of the gun and in the air.

 

[44 Dave]

Thanks guys, this thread got me to get my Pedersoli out, Checked the date marks XXX =1974, 12 gauge chrome lined barrels the left is modified and the right is cylinder. It was in the closet and loaded for 20 years. I capped it and fired then cleaned it last 4th of July!
Will try to get you a picture soon.