Permitless Carry in Texas

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450 Dakota

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This is my first post here, but I have always found good information at this site when doing searches and decided to join. As my first post, I wonder if I might ask the community (being mainly pro-second amendment, Im sure), about your views on Constitutional (permitless) Carry? For years, I lived in Vermont--the state known for "carry without a permit", open or otherwise, so TRUE gun rights were never an issue there. When I moved to Texas in 1983, however, there was not even a permit available to carry a handgun until then-Governor Bush put it to a vote in 1995. Even now, Texas lags behind in the states that are moving toward scrapping the permits on moving to permitless carry. I know....you would think Texas would be at the forefront of the permitless carry movement, but we are not. Personally, I believe that for all FREE people, a firearm should be purchased as effortlessly as a hammer and carried as openly as a wristwatch, and that PEOPLE are responsible for their actions, not the objects they carry <steps off soapbox!>. A significant portion of Texans obviously disagree with me or do not consider it important. That said, what possible reasoning do you think that the pro-second community, law enforcement, or conservative politicians could have for not supporting permitless carry? Is it elitism by those who already carry firearms, issue permits or teach the courses? Maybe those wanting to hang onto a little bit of control over the people? Fear of losing the data bases they have on people with permits? I am on a PAC in my county to get our representative to introduce permitless carry legislation this session. What are your thoughts on the matter of permitless carry?
 
Florida also does not have open carry. It was lost in 1987 when concealed carry came in. We have been trying to have it restored.

As to Texas' attitude towards OC or permitless carry it does appear many Texans are satisfied with the status quo. Reading many gun boards, I get that impression. Political control may come into play. My older brother lived in Texas for 25 years and loved it, but was often confused by the politics! :D

He was an ultra conservative and agreed with most Texan policy's but not the open carry prohibition. I think within a few years Texas will move forward on that issue. I am not as optimistic for Florida making the OC step.

Welcome to the forum.
 
Texas laws regarding firearms come from Texas' more violent past, especially during Reconstruction following the Civil War. First, towns and counties and then the state as a whole adopted restrictions on personal weapons in an attempt to either curb the violence of the era or disarm certain parts of the population. To many, it seemed the civilized thing to do. Texans (at least white ones) could still be armed while traveling, and those with influence could become special deputy sheriffs, deputy constables, Cattleman's Association rangers, etc. which allowed them to legally carry firearms. Much of Texas was rural and privately owned and it really wasn't that much of an issue. Long guns were not restricted and for a long time, the pickup with a gun rack holding a rifle or shotgun was a common sight. Not everyone felt a pressing need to carry a handgun with long guns so easy to hand.

Carrying a prohibited weapon was a misdemeanor, not a felony and the law was used not to restrict or prohibit weapons to the the general public so much as to give LEOs something to hang on suspects they might be handling for other reasons. Persons carrying weapons but not otherwise involved an any illegal activity were generally ignored unless they made it impossible to do so. So for many years, Texans could carry with the tacit permission of LEOs even though they did so illegally. It was kind of like speeding less than 10 miles over the limit where you are generally given a pass unless you are doing something else wrong. But not very many felt the need to carry and not very many did though it was not uncommon for a business owner to be armed while taking the day's receipts to the bank. (My father bought a gun in the 1950's after a stranger followed him home from work, but he never carried it, either on his person or in the car. What he did keep in the glove box was a blackjack which was and still is a prohibited weapon, more illegal than a firearm. To him, it was less offensive.)

As the state became more urbanized and suburbanized, and less rural, such tacit permission became less the norm. City cops were often much less forgiving than rural deputies. Mainly because the encountered more people with guns committing other crimes than they did people with guns acting legally. This led to stricter enforcement and more attention being paid to the issue of guns. The sea change in attitude towards guns came in the '60s as it did in most of the rest of the country. The Kennedy and King assassinations, civil unrest over Civil rights and Viet Nam, big city riots, led to GCA '68 and local LEOs couldn't overlook firearms as easily.

At the same time, Texans had become used to the unofficial lax attitude towards firearms. To most people, the system was working and didn't really interfere with anyone's legal use of arms so there was no need to rock the boat. But as noted, outside influences did rock the boat. Besides federal law, Texas started getting an influx of people moving in from other states. Many of them brought different attitudes regarding firearms. Some, like you, felt there should be more freedom and fewer restrictions, but I think more felt there should be stronger laws and tighter restrictions. In the midst of this growing dichotomy, the Luby's incident happened in Temple which sparked the push for the formal legalization of concealed carry which we have today.

Freedom in any area is something we have only until the area is addressed by the law. Once the law is involved, true Freedom is lost and all we are free to do is what the law allows or does not restrict or prohibit. Laws may change, but once the precedent is set that a freedom is subject to legal restriction, all that is left of that freedom is argument over how much it should be restricted.
 
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Florida also does not have open carry. It was lost in 1987 when concealed carry came in. We have been trying to have it restored.

Florida does however specifically exempt concealed carriers "to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner".

That's my main problem with a lack of open carry in my own state (SC). I will VERY rarely carry anything but my LCP (pocket carry) because with every IWB I've tried (between several guns and holsters) my shirt will occasionally "catch" on the gun if I bend down leaving it exposed for a brief second until I flip it back over.

Technically, in a state without such an exemption or without open carry, I've just committed a crime by openly displaying a firearm.

I don't really intend to open carry, but I wish that it was legal just for the brief times when my gun was (accidentally) openly visible.

I will say though that I disagree with the open carry of long guns. Even the police don't carry long guns routinely - they take them out when they're specifically expecting trouble. A rifle is a big enough inconvenience to tote around that if I see someone with one I expect that they intend on (or at least have a high expectation of) using it. Just MHO.
 
I will say though that I disagree with the open carry of long guns. Even the police don't carry long guns routinely - they take them out when they're specifically expecting trouble. A rifle is a big enough inconvenience to tote around that if I see someone with one I expect that they intend on (or at least have a high expectation of) using it. Just MHO.


In a rural setting, a long gun is more likely to be a tool carried for several different reasons. Hunting is a possibility in rural areas, so is encountering a wild animal or an injured animal that may need to be put down (and no animal control officer to call). Those are just examples, and not an exhaustive list.

In an urban setting, those reasons are far less valid and a long arm carried openly is much more likely to be carried as an offensive weapon. While it is technically legal in Texas to carry a fully loaded AR-15 on a trip to the grocery store, doing so is highly likely to cause a disturbance of the peace in any locale, urban or rural, and since a reasonable person would likely know this, the act (creating the disturbance) would be illegal regardless of the legality of the firearm.
 
Arizona recognizes the right of an individual to carry a weapon, open or concealed, so long as the person is not prohibited from doing so based on prior crimes, durg addiction, mental illness, etc. No permit is required, but a concealed weapon permit will be issued upon request. The reasons for the permit generally center on (a) the ability of the permit holder to purchase a firearm without the burden of a NICS check, and/or (b) reciprocity in other states where the right to carry concealed might not otherwise be recognized for a non-resident.

I persoanlly don't have a problem with anyone carrying a long gun, but then I have carried one as a primary weapon for most of my life. I do advise folks I train that walking into the bank or local convenience store with an AK, while perfectly legal if not posted otherwise, might cause a certain level of nervousness on the part of others and could lead to a meeting with law enforcement personnel. From what I can see on this site and others (including specifically Youtube) many people that exercise their right to carry by carrying a long gun are often attempting to 'make a statement' and/or provoke a response. Not all, mind you, but some. My younger acquaintances refer to such people as "attention wh0r3s".

So I am used to 'permitless carry' and believe it is one of our inalienable rights. But I don't have a problem with making the purchase of a firearm a little more involved than picking up random hardware implements. I would like to keep firearms from the miscreants and nut cases. Almost impossible, but a worthy goal.
 
In a rural setting, a long gun is more likely to be a tool carried for several different reasons. Hunting is a possibility in rural areas, so is encountering a wild animal or an injured animal that may need to be put down (and no animal control officer to call). Those are just examples, and not an exhaustive list.

Indeed. I'm actually from a very rural area and hunting is an obvious exception. As I said, when I see someone with a gun I assume they either are going to use it or have a good chance of using it - hunting falls into that category but as a valid reason.

We (South Carolina) actually specifically allow open carry when hunting/fishing (or in transit to/from your place of hunting/fishing), just not in general. We also limit concealed carry guns to being no longer than 12" across its longest point (which includes most handguns of any reasonable size, but excludes long guns). I personally don't have a problem with the 12" limit being maintained if open carry were legalized so long as the hunting/fishing exception was still in place to allow longer guns when doing those activities.
 
It has little to do with restrictions and everything to do with the state wanting tax revenue. The state gets money from the permits. It's that simple. Right now, it's a cash cow. To renew, all you need to do is go online and pay. No retest needed, no instructor. They removed everything but the fee. Eventually, it will probably go to Constitutional Carry, but not before the state has exhausted all possibilities for squeezing every last dollar it can from gun owners.
 
Open carrying a firearm in itself can in no way be interpreted as breach or disturbing the peace. The mere exercising of a Constitutionally guaranteed Right can NEVER be unlawful in any way.

Shall not be infringed is so unbelievably clear its hard to imagine how we got to this point. No one gets to tell anyone else how they may or may not exercise their Rights.
 
It has little to do with restrictions and everything to do with the state wanting tax revenue. The state gets money from the permits. It's that simple. Right now, it's a cash cow. To renew, all you need to do is go online and pay. No retest needed, no instructor. They removed everything but the fee. Eventually, it will probably go to Constitutional Carry, but not before the state has exhausted all possibilities for squeezing every last dollar it can from gun owners.
If renewal is required and so is a renewal fee, just when so you expect that last dollar to be extracted? ;)
 
Open carrying a firearm in itself can in no way be interpreted as breach or disturbing the peace. The mere exercising of a Constitutionally guaranteed Right can NEVER be unlawful in any way.

Well, the thread is about Texas where that is not true. What state are you discussing.
 
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