Perspectives and Questions from a beginner.

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The only safety that matters is the one between your ears. Anything else is a failsafe in case the user does something they shouldn't (ie not follow the 4 rules of gun handling)

Follow the rules and the only ones that are needed are ones that prevent mechanical defects (ie firing pin block)
 
the safety between my ears tells me that the safety between my ears isn't perfect.

glock : 2 mistakes must occur for UD during holstering - Something must be in a position to foul the trigger, and the user must fail to properly clear the holster of that object before performing the holstering action.

XD/LEM HK : 3 mistakes. the 2 that are required for the glock, + failing to place the user's thumb against the rear of the slide during holstering.

I believe I will almost never, maybe once or twice in my entire lifetime, suffer a re-holstering UD with a glock where I make those two mistakes simultaneously, but that isn't an infrequent enough occurrence for me. adding a 3rd necessary mistake means, to me, that I don't think I have a good shot of ever suffering that particular accident.

my priorities are, in order:
1) the gun must not fire unless it is the users intention for it to do so.
2) the gun must fire if it is the intention of the user for it to do so.
3) everything else.
 
If you understand the 4 rules of firearm safety, then you should understand that in order for someone to be accidentally shot, more than one of the rules must be broken. They are the additional safety layer that explains why the only people who do accidentally shoot themselves or others are those who violate the basic rules of safety.

If you fear that you will be unable to adhere to those rules scrupulously throughout your firearm-owning life, then you need to reevaluate your plan. One way to deal with a trigger-safety-only gun, by the way, would be to carry it in condition 3: chamber empty and hammer down with a charged magazine in the gun.
 
the 4 rules are, IMO, common sense guidelines but they are not perfect because at least one of them, never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy, is by it's nature unachievable.

is the gun, when it is holstered, pointed at/along your leg? is this because you intend to destroy your leg, or dig a trench along it?

and some weapons, glock/XD/others, require you to violate 2 rules to disassemble them.
1) you must pull the trigger, which violates a rule because you don't intend to fire the weapon, but you do this because the gun is unloaded. so you're treating the gun as if it isn't loaded, which is a violation of a 2nd rule.
 
the 4 rules are, IMO, common sense guidelines but they are not perfect because at least one of them, never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy, is by it's nature unachievable.

That's close to the idea, but the rules have to understood in context. For instance, rule one says to assume that any gun is loaded. That goes until you know for a fact otherwise. So to clean a gun, even if you remember unloading it last night, you still check the chamber before pulling the trigger (if cleaning requires this or you are doing a dry-fire drill). Smart owners will check twice and maybe again just to be triple sure.

At that point, you are clear to disassemble, look down the barrel, etc. Still, it's a good habit to keep the muzzle of a gun you know to be empty pointed away from people, pets, etc. You follow rule 2 because this is how safety is layered.

So to holster a gun, you follow rule three and be certain your finger is off the trigger. When I do this, I look at the holster. There's no worry about snagging it on something because you watch what you're doing. The spirit of the rules is that when you have to break one of them, extreme caution is warranted and it's harder to make a mistake when you're paying extra careful attention. Anyway, I think you'll find that once you have a good amount of range time in and have worked with your weapon for a while, you'll be comfortable in handling it correctly.

In fact, your concern over these issues strikes me as evidence that you won't be a careless owner.
 
Call me odd, but from your previous responses I really don't think you'd feel comfortable around firearms.
I understand your concern for safety, but let's face it, you're going to be doing an activity which inherently will raise your "risk factors." And you don't seem like the kind of guy to want to do that.
So my advice would be to not purchase a handgun, or at least try and get very thoroughly acquainted with them, before you buy anything permanently.
 
I am willing to accept any risk factors _that I have to_ to be a responsible gun owner and eventual CCW holder, viewing them as the consequence of a free society, but that does not mean that I would not seek to maximize my benefit while minimizing my costs and exposure to risk.

I own a motorcycle, but one that is equipped with ABS brakes. same thinking.
 
the safety between my ears tells me that the safety between my ears isn't perfect.

Yet your belief in the superiority of having a manual safety is "firm and unshakable" even though the device is there to merely ameliorate the risk (and only part of the time, at that) of the hair trigger that many, albeit not all, such handguns have. :scrutiny: The bottom line is that ultimately you cannot rely on mechanical safety features, which are only there to supplement the so-called safety between your ears, or rather your discipline in handling firearms. There are tradeoffs involved with virtually everything you do. For instance, I would submit that for some people making the operation of a handgun simpler would help improve the consistency of their firearms discipline and reduce the number of mistakes they'd make. The main reason that people sometimes forget to take a gun off the manual safety when ready to fire is that they're so intensely focused, and rightfully so, on following the safety rules rather than operating a mechanical device. Of course, such a mistake can be made exceedingly rare through training, but it is still merely an aspect of operating a specific machine, over which the fundamental safety rules always take precedence.

I realize that your intention is to layer different types of safety measures on top of one another as reinforcement, but in your original post, you implied that you'd be fine with the very light, short trigger pulls that many handguns equipped with manual safeties have. This is not unusual or wrong in any way, but I'd like to note for the sake of perspective that it marks a specific level of risk that you are willing to accept, and that there are other people who take even more precautions than you're envisioning, such as combining a manual safety with a "safe-action" (trigger safeties) pistol, which is probably the most popular configuration of the Smith & Wesson M&P in law enforcement currently, to take one example. There is no absolute way to prove that a gun that has a single-action hair trigger and a manual safety is safer overall than a gun that has trigger safeties. For one thing, you can't know for certain at any given moment whether the manual safety is still on--that you remembered to activate it and that nothing has accidentally deactivated it since then--so you still have to keep your finger and other objects away from the trigger. Having a longer, heavier trigger pull is arguably just as safe overall, provided that you follow the same fundamental rules. And once you deactivate the manual safety, then all of a sudden you have to rely more than ever on that fallible safety between your ears that seems to make you so nervous. That's what I find somewhat disturbing about your faith in the superiority of manual safeties and possible lack of faith in your own firearms handling discipline. Under the tremendous stress and adrenaline rush of a gunfight, would you really be safer with that hair trigger or a gun that has some safety built into the trigger at all times until you deliberately squeeze it with some force over some distance? I'm not just talking about your own safety here, but also the safety of those who may be present but should not be shot. I'm not trying to tell you what's right for you or even what's really better--I'm just putting things into perspective.

Now let me give you my personal perspective. When I started the process of buying my first handgun, I had pretty much decided ahead of time that I wanted a single-action-only or double-action/single-action semiautomatic pistol with a manual safety so that it could be kept in Condition 1 (i.e. cocked & locked). After trying a bunch of different pistols, including revolvers, while keeping as open a mind as I could, I ended up with a safe-action polymer pistol with no manual safety, and I consider myself a very conservative type of person when it comes to safety. I found that the trigger pull has no affect on combat shooting except to make things just a little safer and more deliberate on my part, I liked the fact that the safeties are always on except when I deliberately pull the trigger (and trigger discipline is one of the fundamental rules), and the simplicity of operation gives me one less thing to worry about, making that fallible safety between my ears a little bit more reliable. This sort of system has worked fine for double-action revolvers for many decades, and it works fine for semiautomatics and me, too. I'm not saying that you have to agree and change your mind, but do learn to rely on yourself before relying on a manual safety--it's only there because some triggers are unforgiving of even the most minor of accidents, not because it's inherently necessary for the safe handling of all firearms, or superior to all manuals of arms in general.
 
Manco : <3!

you may/may not have noted in my previous postings that I've moderated my position on the manual safety, so much for "firm and unshakeable" (I'm given to hyperbole).

I didn't mention another thing I've come to believe, on the topic of "shootable triggers" which is that I think that, basically, the glock type lightened double action trigger is my most favorite. I can shoot accurately on the DA shot of a sig, I can shoot accurately (and faster) with a glock-type trigger, but I can't shoot for beans with the single action trigger of either a USP or P229.

you're right about wanting to layer safety, but my current thinking is that I'm more interested in what I would call 'automatic' safeties, the squeeze cocker is probably my favorite safety paradigm that I've come across, but the P7's cost/capacity/longevity attributes don't add up for me, despite my infatuation with the squeeze cocking mechanism and it's self-safing nature. I still believe a manual safety is a good addition to a firearm, but I wouldn't call it a deal/no-deal feature unless I were in an open-carry type situation (such as an LEO is)

what I consider the most high risk periods for unintentional discharge of a firearm are : holstering, cleaning (if and only if the firearm is of the type to require trigger operation in disassembly) and post-shooting scenarios.

based on that, I'd prefer a gun which doesn't require the trigger be pulled for disassembly, a gun whose trigger does not have a short/light resting state (like the SA on DA/SA guns or a 1911 trigger), and a gun which facilitates a holstering procedure which is capable of enduring a trigger snag without discharge, and a gun which does not require a control operation to be placed into a safe holstering state (gun must not require the use of a decocker/safety to be holsterable).

so that's the path I took that led me to the XD and P2000.

XD: I can be flexible on using the trigger for disassembly, and the grip safety allows for secure holstering when the thumb is placed against the back of the slide to not depress the grip safety, and the gun has an appropriately resistant trigger.

P2000: the LEM model hammer returns forward when the trigger is released, so the thumb can be placed onto the hammer on the way into the holster, preventing the trigger from being cycled. Does not require trigger pull for disassembly, and I believe the magazine release lever is less likely to unseat the magazine during course of carry(I would promote reliability of the first magazine load over any potential advantage in deploying a second magazine load).

P2k also fits my "weird overly practical german stuff" sensibility, but the XD has it's charms as well.
 
Manco's Reply brings back memories

An older family friend got me shooting back in the '50s. One of the first things he told me was that "the ultimate gun safety is between your ears"! The second was to not "mess" with a gun you don't know about. ASK!! Much later, another person who was teaching me combat shooting, told me to thoughly know the gun you use for defence - to the point that it is second nature. Target shooting, etc. can be more deliberate. Pick the pistol you like best and learn everything -good or short comings- about it. Happy shooting!
 
Just as an update, looks like it'll be a 4" XD 9mm for us.

looking forward to picking it up when time allows.
 
Good choice. Only you can tell us what you need safety wise. Each type exists for a reason.

I prefere striker fired no safety guns like Glock, XD, M&P. (trigger and grip safeties don't count IMO, and I am quite opinionated) I prefere these for CCW, because they're quick, easy, and reliable. And your never in an hurry to reholster when your CCW is your primary defense.

I still approve of manual safety guns 1911, M9 etc for secondary weapons when a rifle is a primary. Because you constantly transition from primary to secondary during training, and a safety gun is a little nicer for that.
 
To the OP:

I think you are overthinking it, but if it makes you feel any better my H&Ks have been worth every penny!

I personally don't want a safety on my dedicated CCW, which is why I carry a H&K P2000sk with LEM trigger (no safety). However, I like manual safeties for other situations (ie Home-defense and range duty).

For me, the logic comes from the answer to the question, "Is it going to stay in a holster 99.99% of the time?" If the answer is yes, then you probably don't need a safety. For example, if it's a dedicated CCW it will live its life in a holster UNTIL you have to pull it out and use it. If that's the case, then why would you want a safety to slow you down? With a quality holster that fully shields the trigger, you don't have to worry about an AD/ND while it's holstered. Why would you ever want to pull out your holstered CCW if you aren't planning on using it to defend your life? If that same pistol is going to the range for practice, simply keep it unloaded unless you are actively sending lead downrange. And if that's the case, you should be alert and using your brain as a safety anyhow.

If the answer to that question is no, then a safety might be a good idea. Dedicated truck and night-stand guns come to mind here. These guns will more than likely be laying down somewhere with the trigger totally exposed. A manual safety in this situation is probably a good idea.

The best answer is that both active and passive-type safeties have their place. That's why everyone needs more than just one pistol!
 
You have too much analysis and too little practical experience to judge properly.

Even if you have a manual safety you must remember to put it on. Nothing is fool proof.

Your trigger finger in on the rail of the weapon until you point it at something you are OK with destroying. Period.

The weapon will be in a holster which precludes one from pulling the trigger when you aren't shooting it.

The reality is that the most popular weapons out there are glocks, xd's and M&p's. Manual safeties can be had on the XD45, but there's no reason other than 1911 guys being used to a manual safety.

You need to own a weapon a while before you become comfortable with it.

There are negligent discharges with guns that have a manual safety.

I started out with DA/SA systems and generally prefer them over striker fired weapons.

Regardless, it is important you feel comfortable with what you get.

The P30 just came out with a manual safety version. The grip is awesome and it's a great weapon. I had the P2000 but have shot a friends P30.

There aren't any problems with people accidentally hitting the mag release. Maybe (?) if you had really meaty hands, but in practice....it would be a rare issue.

If you like the non manual safety guns and they fit you, get it and spend the other $400-$500 on solid training. That's by far the best road to safe handling and good shooting IMO.

EDIT: COOL deal...didn't get to page 3 of the thread. I like the XD myself.
 
Pick the pistol you like best and learn everything -good or short comings- about it. Happy shooting!

I agree. It's your decision to make, and your life/safety on the line. You're the one that has to live with your decision. Don't let others bully and/or strongarm you to make a decision that you're uncomfortable with. I have guns with and without manual safeties, and they all have their place. If one is familiar enough with their firearm, taking off the safety is an unconscious act. I hunt upland game and cannot remember the last time I had to "think" about taking the safety off before I shoot, it has become an ingrained instinct. I would never consider walking around in the woods without the safety on for fear that I would forget to take it off in the heat of the moment. Now, with a new gun, I may fumble for a while, but then again, practice and becoming familiar with your firearm takes care of that. Yes, I know hunting upland game is not the same as fighting off a hoard of zombies, but the principle is the same. I apply the safety on my 1911s at the range, everytime I load a mag and again, cannot remember the last time I had to "think" about taking the safety off before emptying the mag. If one is considering a handgun to protect their life and the lives of their loved ones, they must practice enough to be proficient enough to hit what they are aiming at....that is no easy task. By the time one can consistently hit the target, the action required to take the safety off should be natural and automatic. If one feels comfortable without a safety so be it. It is one less thing to worry about, mechanically and mentally. Apparently to some, this is a big deal, to some it's a non-issue. Again, it's your decision to make.
 
<3, I may be, but I'm ok with overanalysis.

side note, shot the XD today at the range, not a good fit for the GF, felt good handling it but was having problems with failures to eject/feed, not getting good purchase on the top of the backstrap with the web of her thumb.

did some more handling in the gun case armed with a better sense of what to look for, the 2 best fitting pistols were the beretta PX4 and USP compact, the beretta I discarded due to it's manual of arms, the USP compact brings us right back to the P2000 in LEM.

I wish I could say I'm sad about getting the gun I truly wanted, but I'm not. a little more basic research, a little trying to track someone down with a P2k/LEM USPc in my neck of the woods (or a range with a rental, ha ha ha), but yeah, looking like an hK kinda household.
 
Glocks are good weapons because they are pretty much idiot proof. And everyone know there is no shortage of those.

For the rest of us, there are 1911's.

:)

Settle down....its a joke.
 
A manual safety is a good idea. If you're proficient with the gun, it's not going to matter. Some people just get too tied up trying to be "high speed, low drag". I also don't agree with people who think you SHOULD NOT carry a gun if you aren't going to carry it with a round in the chamber. The Israelis don't carry pistols with a hot chamber. And we all know how often they're in real gunfights.
 
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