Petition to Save Red's Trading Post from the ATF
- Thread starter carnaby
- Start date
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SamTuckerMTNMAN
Member
signed it
911 as of now.....
coincidence?
ST
911 as of now.....
coincidence?
ST
OP
OP
carnaby
Member
Seems awfully low since I got this info from Kim du Toit's website. He has a zillion readers who should swarm this thing.
Mortech
Member
Well if they've been a lil lax in paperwork all I can say is "Bullseye Gun's" , on the other hand no one can be 100% perfect in doing paperwork . The BATF is on a mission to keep that fiasco from happening again . Now they are a pretty good store and have expanded under new ownership .
OP
OP
carnaby
Member
SIOP, do you have a link to that article?
OP
OP
carnaby
Member
2TransAms
Member
If any government agency or bureau was 99% competent we'd be ecstatic. 
Methinks somebody got a wild hair and made Red's their pet project.
Methinks somebody got a wild hair and made Red's their pet project.1 old 0311
member
Didn't the ATF have vastly more than 1% of THEIR weapons missing? How can they hold you to higher standards?
Elza
Member
I’ve worked for the Federal government for nearly 20 years. I would be astounded if they hit 80% much less 99%! “Do as I say not as I do” comes readily to mind.
Mark Whiteman
Member
1345!
It isn't really just about Red's. Its a long standing pattern. And we aren't even talking about what happens too often to individual gun owners.
It isn't really just about Red's. Its a long standing pattern. And we aren't even talking about what happens too often to individual gun owners.
Jacka L Ope
Member
1358.
Richiec77
Member
Signed. This a VERY unreasonable action that was taken. What would happen if the ATF screwed up on paperwork...Oh wait. That has happened. Are they Shut down?? Hell no. They are still going on as if nothing happened. There is no justice. There is no oversight of the same caliber for the ATF as there is for us. It needs to be reasonable.
Aguila Blanca
Member
I would much appreciate it if a knowledgeable FFL or three would comment on the charge I highlighted above. What, exactly, IS the purpose and the regulation regarding a 4473? I thought a 4473 was a record of a transfer. Is there any requirement to preserve a record of a NON-transfer?
What if the 4473 doesn't exist at the time of the denial? Example: I recently took delivery of a new handgun. I'm in a state where my CCW fulfills the requirement for a background check, and the FFL calls the state police for an authorization for each particular transaction. In this case, the FFL took my license and made the call while I was filling out the 4473. If for some reason I had been denied, what would/could he have done if I simply stopped writing, or picked up my license and the 4473 and stuck them both in my pocket as I walked out the door?
I believe that was the FBI, not the BATFE.
Bump for Red's...
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?redstrad
2573 signatures and counting...
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?redstrad
2573 signatures and counting...
Mark Whiteman
Member
JohnBT
Member
"Sounds like typical extreme abuse of power by the ATF. I don't understand why they do this."
Because Red's did not live up to the agreement reached after the earlier audit and actually did a worse job of recordkeeping than what got them in trouble the first time?
I mean, c'mon, it's like driving through a speed trap while flipping the bird at the cop and then wondering why they're picking on you.
John
Because Red's did not live up to the agreement reached after the earlier audit and actually did a worse job of recordkeeping than what got them in trouble the first time?
I mean, c'mon, it's like driving through a speed trap while flipping the bird at the cop and then wondering why they're picking on you.
John
xd9fan
Member
side note....I joined the JPFO to help get rid of the 4473 form all together. (along with the BATFE )
)Mark Whiteman
Member
Thats fine if you're registered already. Charles rarely opens it up for registration.
Lucky
Member
Signed.
I saw a show last night on the Chin dynasty in China, and how they made an incredible amount of laws regulating all aspects of civil life. They said it was Legalism, something done by Tyrants.
I saw a show last night on the Chin dynasty in China, and how they made an incredible amount of laws regulating all aspects of civil life. They said it was Legalism, something done by Tyrants.
Update: Some good news!!
http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2007/05/02/news/top_story/111336.txt
Red's back ... for now; judge finds fault with ATF findings
By Cassidy Friedman
Times-News writer
TWIN FALLS - Try peeling the smile off Ryan Horsley's face.
A federal judge has - for now - given his family their gun shop back.
A federal agency revoked Red's Trading Post's right to buy and trade guns again after finding the gun shop had committed errors in its gun sales.
But U.S. District Judge Edward J. Lodge ruled Monday that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives had exaggerated and omitted some of its findings used to justify revoking Red's license.
And Lodge granted Red's March 20 request to stall the ATF's sanctions until he reaches a final decision on whether revoking Red's license was legal.
"It was a great decision," Horsley said. "I am ecstatic. I was just waiting. For nearly two months this has been exhausting."
Horsley, whose gun inventory had dropped from 1,000 to 160 guns, is reopening suspended accounts - both on the distributor side and in advertising. His largest distributor agreed to hold $200,000 of merchandise while the dispute goes to court. Now, Horsley is hoping his sales, which had reached their pinnacle in more than 70 years of business, will spark back up.
Lodge wrote:
"The ATF speaks of violations found during the inspections of 2000 and 2005, but fails to reveal that additional investigations in 2001 and 2007 revealed no violations or problems."
Some violations had been counted twice.
"Granting the preliminary injunction would not place the public's safety in jeopardy."
Between the hardships Lodge's ruling would cause the ATF and Red's, "the relative hardships tip sharply in favor of Red's."
Lodge's injunction grants Red's full operation status until Lodge makes a final ruling at an unscheduled future hearing.
"I have been getting all these calls from distributors and manufacturers, and everyone else, just congratulating us. You should see my inbox right now," Horsley said. "Getting all our advertising back in place, getting all our orders set, arranging - it's just kind of nuts. It's not over yet."
Cassidy Friedman covers crime and courts. He can be reached at (208)735-3241 or by e-mail at [email protected].
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: It really takes a lot for a judge to go against one of its own agencies. We had some fence sitters, and some folks openly critical of Red's Trading Post in earlier discussions. Perhaps this judge's decision, although only interrim, will give these folks pause, before jumping on the bandwagon based on the ATF's shoddy findings of "fact". They are truly findings of politically motivated bias, aimed at all gun owners. You and me.
Take a minute to sign Red's petition! (now at 2703 and counting!). It suggests congressional hearings to rein in the ATF.
http://www.petitiononline.com/redstrad/petition.html
Better still, take a look at Red's online auctions, and maybe throw some business his way at this critical time!
http://www.redstradingpost.com/auctions_AA.php
http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2007/05/02/news/top_story/111336.txt
Red's back ... for now; judge finds fault with ATF findings
By Cassidy Friedman
Times-News writer
TWIN FALLS - Try peeling the smile off Ryan Horsley's face.
A federal judge has - for now - given his family their gun shop back.
A federal agency revoked Red's Trading Post's right to buy and trade guns again after finding the gun shop had committed errors in its gun sales.
But U.S. District Judge Edward J. Lodge ruled Monday that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives had exaggerated and omitted some of its findings used to justify revoking Red's license.
And Lodge granted Red's March 20 request to stall the ATF's sanctions until he reaches a final decision on whether revoking Red's license was legal.
"It was a great decision," Horsley said. "I am ecstatic. I was just waiting. For nearly two months this has been exhausting."
Horsley, whose gun inventory had dropped from 1,000 to 160 guns, is reopening suspended accounts - both on the distributor side and in advertising. His largest distributor agreed to hold $200,000 of merchandise while the dispute goes to court. Now, Horsley is hoping his sales, which had reached their pinnacle in more than 70 years of business, will spark back up.
Lodge wrote:
"The ATF speaks of violations found during the inspections of 2000 and 2005, but fails to reveal that additional investigations in 2001 and 2007 revealed no violations or problems."
Some violations had been counted twice.
"Granting the preliminary injunction would not place the public's safety in jeopardy."
Between the hardships Lodge's ruling would cause the ATF and Red's, "the relative hardships tip sharply in favor of Red's."
Lodge's injunction grants Red's full operation status until Lodge makes a final ruling at an unscheduled future hearing.
"I have been getting all these calls from distributors and manufacturers, and everyone else, just congratulating us. You should see my inbox right now," Horsley said. "Getting all our advertising back in place, getting all our orders set, arranging - it's just kind of nuts. It's not over yet."
Cassidy Friedman covers crime and courts. He can be reached at (208)735-3241 or by e-mail at [email protected].
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: It really takes a lot for a judge to go against one of its own agencies. We had some fence sitters, and some folks openly critical of Red's Trading Post in earlier discussions. Perhaps this judge's decision, although only interrim, will give these folks pause, before jumping on the bandwagon based on the ATF's shoddy findings of "fact". They are truly findings of politically motivated bias, aimed at all gun owners. You and me.
Take a minute to sign Red's petition! (now at 2703 and counting!). It suggests congressional hearings to rein in the ATF.
http://www.petitiononline.com/redstrad/petition.html
Better still, take a look at Red's online auctions, and maybe throw some business his way at this critical time!
http://www.redstradingpost.com/auctions_AA.php
JohnBT
Member
Good for them.
"They are truly findings of politically motivated bias, aimed at all gun owners."
"Never attribute to malice what incompetence will explain."
John
"They are truly findings of politically motivated bias, aimed at all gun owners."
"Never attribute to malice what incompetence will explain."
John
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