Picture of .380 Cor-Bon and Golden Saber

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I've read some very good things about the Cor-Bon DPX all copper bullet.Even right here they had a thread with "John Farnam on Cor-Bon DPX ammo". It went back a day or two, but they were very impressed with the penetration through leather jacket and through denim before getting into the water jugs. It, although lighter, penetrated further. It also held all together.
Below are 3 bullets I fired out my Bersa BT380 pistol. One on the left is Federal Hyra Shock (note, the jacket came apart in the water on this one), Cor-Bon DPX, and Remington Golden Saber. The "big" bullet in the picture to the left of the expanded Hydra Shock is the .45ACP in Federal Hydra Shock configuration.
bullet2.jpg


I currenly have my Bersa magazine loaded with all the first bullets as Cor-Bon with the last one a Remington Golden Saber.

Too bad they don't have Black Talon ammo anymore. I thought they were the very best for small arms like the .380 and 9mm. They were also great in the .45ACP in that they prevented it from over penetrating and exiting. They did cause bad guy to exit. What ever happend to those?
 
The black talons bullet design is still on the market. They just took off the evil black luballoy coating that people thought made it penetrate bullet proof vest,and they changed the evil packaging from solid black with a scary eagle with claws to a gold box with a blue stripe and a police badge on it.

Due to bad media hype about it going threw police vest,the talons cutting ER surgeons gloves, being cop killers,being black killers,ect people tpo this day still believe all of that stuff and think they are illegal to own.

Winchester changed the packaging and company policy too only sell the talons to law enforcement. You can still get them threw ammo dealers because of over stock,returned purchases,ect. It not against the law to own them, its just against Winchesters policy to sell directly to civilians.

The new and improved talon simply without the black coating is called the Winchester Ranger-T. Allot of people say that Winchester SXT is the "same exact thing" but i have found that it has to be the Ranger-SXT and not the Supreme SXT. The Supreme SXT has 8 pedals instead of 6 and they are de-fanged. The Supreme SXT do have a larger hollow point cavity though. I have seen 9mm and .380 Winchester Supreme SXT at SportsmansWarehouse and BassProShop. I have seen Ranger-T in 9mm,.40,.380auto,and .357sig at www.ammunitiontogo.com,cheaperthandirt.com,ect.
http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/...95gr-hp-ammo&cName=380-auto-hollow-point-ammo

1) Black Talon (Lubalox coated bullet, in nickel case) 6 sharp petals
2) Ranger SXT (Lubalox coated bullet in brass case) 6 sharp petals
3) Ranger-T (Copper bullet in nickel case) 6 sharp petals
4) Supreme SXT (Copper bullet in nickel case) 8 blunt petals
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6589/talonpic1ia0.jpg

"the chronology of the development of Winchester's SXT handgun bulllet line:

1992: The Black Talon (BT) SXT (Supreme Expansion Talon) line of handgun ammunition was introduced at ASLET (American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers) and then a few days later it was presented at the SHOT (Sporting Hunting Outdoor Trade) show.

July 1, 1993: John Luigi Ferri went on a shooting spree at a law firm located at 101 California St, San Fancisco, California, killing 8 people and wounding 6 others. The ammunition he used in his Tec-9 9x19mm pistols were the Black Talon. After receiving continuous bad press in the media and with threats of potential draconian ammunition legislation from some anti-gun U.S. Congressmen, Winchester voluntarily suspended any further sales of the Black Talon ammunition on the civilian market (I personally verified this information with a call to Winchester on November 22, 1993).

1993-94: Winchester begins to sell the BT handgun loads as "RANGER SXT CONTROLLED EXPANSION NICKEL-PLATED SHELLCASES" "LAW ENFORCEMENT AMMUNITION". As far as I can tell, this early Ranger SXT was just the original BT ammunition packaged for L.E. sales (since it was discontinued for civilian sales).

Circa 1994-95: Winchester begins to produce the Ranger SXT loads with the same BT bullet but in brass cases instead of the original nickel cases.

1994: Winchester introduced the Supreme SXT (Supreme Expansion Technology) to the civilian market. This bullet differed from the original BT in that it has eight jacket cuts and when expanded, the bullet has eight expanded jacket pedals but without the sharp pointed "talon" at the end of the jacket pedals.

1998: Winchester redesigns the SXT bullet with a thinner jacket which allows the bullet to expand sooner than the original late-expanding BT bullet. This load is now called the "Ranger T-Series" and this loading differs from the previous Ranger ammunition in that it has a shiny copper bullet jacket instead of the black Lubalox coating, and is loaded in nickel cases. The bullet still retains the six jacket cuts/pedals and sharp pointed "talon" jacket pedals on expanded bullets as the original BT and black Lubalox coated SXT bullets. "
 
Marlin 45 carbine said "I handload for my .380 Browning. the Golden Saber groups noticeably tighter than any other slug. if that has any relevance to 'stopping power'? "

The GS bullet has a rather unusual base for more contact with the rifling of the barrel, thus enhancing accuracy. But on the other note, more contact creates more friction that 'may' slow down the bullet some, and 'may' increase pressures that won't allow it to be loaded as hot for higher speed. However, that said, I don't see a real speed issue on the above bullet I posted. I always figured that any .380 that managed to expand was well designed with bullet configuration and grains/kind of gunpowder.

That said, if it were a tack driver and you put 3 rounds in the same hole you have, in effect, put 2 more rounds into an area that is alread damaged. 3 rounds spaced a little appart would seem to me (logically) a little more devestating to the body. In the real world, where you have a real person that is assaulting you, I doubt that tack drive accuracy is all that necessary since the bad guy is going to be moving, and your point of aim won't ever be the same spot, unless purely by accident. Paper targets don't move.

Now, the other side of the coin is that you want the best accuracy you can get "IF" you are shooting at ranges 25 yards and above. I can't remember exact figures when I was a Deputy, but as I recall, the avearge confrontation distance is a mere 7 yards. If you have to shoot at 25 yards and above doesn't the rule of "self defence" become harder to prove at that distance since you are not in the immediate danger area?
 
Marlin 45 Carbine: I gather from your comments that you load your own 380's using Golden Sabers. Care to elaborate on that? I've loaded my NAA 380 since purchasing it with Golden Sabers and had been thinking of loading my own, if for no other reason than to have practice rounds that felt as close to possible to the real thing. I use the NAA 380 as one of my carry guns. So far, the only thing I've loaded for practice is 95gr bullets and as you know, the Golden Sabers are 102gr. I'd be interested in knowing where you are finding the best price on the Golden Sabers and what kind of charge you are putting behind them.
 
In the FWIW category...

In my primary weapons I carry either Winchester Ranger in 9MM (RA9TA) or Federal HST's in .45 (P45HST1). In my pocket is a little P3AT stuffed with DPX.
 
Natchez has the Golden Sabre .380 slugs. also have primed Federal .380 brass on sale. I use Lee data for loading Bullseye and up the charge .1 gr. as Lee's data is very conservative. I use Lee powder thru-expander die and dipper.
 
Thanks Marlin, for that info. I have a Lee Classic Turret Press and use their dies and Pro Auto Disk Powder Measure. I'm really interested in making that jump to Golden Sabers. Any recommendations on OAL? And yes, Lee's data in on the conservative side. When I loaded my first 45ACP using the Lee minimum, I could swear that the rounds skipped off the floor before hitting the target! But they were consistent and it was easy to increase the charge incrementally to get where I wanted to go with the loads. I'm using 2.9 gr. with the 95gr bullets. I'll look at bumping that to 3.0 and see what happens. Thanks again for the help.
 
IMO: The orginial Black Talon was not all it was cracked up to be in several calibers. The 230 .45 ACP for instance often would not expand at all.

The Winchester Ranger-T that replaced it is a "third generation" bullet design that has vastly improved performance over the old "second generation" Black Talon.

rcmodel
 
Bonded just means the lead core and copper jacket are fussed together so they will not separate and to prevent loss of mass or fragmenting. If they used a bonded Talon or not for that test i do not know but they will still have the talons.

There is no telling what velocity,test barrel length, and medium they shot into to get that kind of expansion.

They will typically come out like this. (230g .45)
Image187.jpg


"The deer heart shown was grazed with a 9mm Winchester 127-gr. +P+ Ranger fired from a Browning Hi Power.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Image136.jpg
 
Adam, The folks at Ammunitions To Go do have Ranger T in .380 ACP. They just don't have it in .45 ACP.
.380 Winchester T Ammunition

Now to find it unbonded for .45 ACP.

However, I do feel quite confident with the .45 ACP Cor-Bon that I have. All copper and what an expansive nasty bullet I recovered form shooting into water in milk jugs the other day.!! Think I should post picture?:)
 
Taurus joined up with Federal or somebody and now makes a similar all copper bullet called the Taurus HEX. That guy should have .45s also. If i wanted a good bonded bullet i would probably go GoldDot but Rangers are pretty cheap @ $20 for 50. That solid copper mushrooming X design undoubtedly would preform very well but it's just not my style.
 
Newer Picture of .45 and .380 shells

Finally got around to shooting my .45 Cor-Bon into some water. Did a very nasty job on the first gallon jug that's for sure. Here is a picture of the expansion of the rounds I have.
bullets45_380.jpg

I would think that being struck with the Cor-Bon in a vital area would pose serious, life threatening results immediately. 2 shots and I don't think the BG would be around much longer.
 
This Winchester Law Enforcement brochure is very informative and shows all of there line of LE Ranger ammo including 12g shells and the bonded ammo.
 
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