Pinned Barrels, yes or no

[halfmoonclip]

Both MIM and forging at simply cheap ways to get near net shape quickly. MIM typically requires less post machining as it is able to create finer details more consistently. Forging can sometimes get away with out heat treatment relying on the work hardening of the forging process. Though to get the most out of most alloys heat treatment is still required.

Nice summary, mcb. What you've posted makes perfect sense. MIM is a fact of modern life in any case. It is amazing how nearly finished MIM parts have become.
Thanks,
Moon

 

[mcb]

Nice summary, mcb. What you've posted makes perfect sense. MIM is a fact of modern life in any case. It is amazing how nearly finished MIM parts have become.
Thanks,
Moon

Hopefully not too much a tangent but MIM became a bad word for many firearms buyers because the gun industry was a very early adopter of the technology. Early MIM parts were plagued with problems because the technology was not yet mature but the gun industry was trying to make it work (and ultimately contributes a lot to the technology's maturity). Early on, some products worked some did not due to the problem with the early MIM processes. Now that MIM is a mature process it benefits in two ways. The material properties (due to both materials used and process) of MIM have improved greatly over the past twenty years. Also engineers have learned to use the process to take advantage of it's strength and minimize its now dwindling short comings. 20 years go MIM parts could barely hold up to moderate stress application like fire controls to the current MIM process that lets S&W make a 380 Bodyguard barrel from MIM with no post MIM machining. That is a pretty remarkable.

 

[StrawHat]

I've a '30s vintage pre-Model 10, and the simple act of thumbing the action will bring a smile to the face of anyone who appreciates good machinery.
Newer production is actually quite good, but it doesn't feel the same as the old stuff.
Moon

Part of that wonderful feeling is the old long action. From the first Hand Ejector Model until just after the war, the long action was superb. Then, the competitive shooters had gunsmiths rebuild them into “speed action” or “short action” revolvers. In 1947(?), S&W introduced their version and carried it throughout the line.

I wonder how shooters felt about it before the echo chamber of the internet?

Kevin

 

[StrawHat]

Hopefully not too much a tangent but MIM became a bad word for many firearms buyers because the gun industry was a very early adopter of the technology. Early MIM parts were plagued with problems because the technology was not yet mature but the gun industry was trying to make it work (and ultimately contributes a lot to the technology's maturity). Early on, some products worked some did not due to the problem with the early MIM processes. Now that MIM is a mature process it benefits in two ways. The material properties (due to both materials used and process) of MIM have improved greatly over the past twenty years. Also engineers have learned to use the process to take advantage of it's strength and minimize its now dwindling short comings. 20 years go MIM parts could barely hold up to moderate stress application like fire controls to the current MIM process that lets S&W make a 380 Bodyguard barrel from MIM with no post MIM machining. That is a pretty remarkable.

And some folk confuse MIM with the sintered metal parts, (as used by Ruger). Those things were like cinder blocks! They were almost easy to smooth because you only had 1/3 to 1/2 of the surface to work on! It was what wasn’t there that was the problem.

Kevin

 

[PapaG]

Stan, the Luddite, here. For reasons I cannot articulate but upon which I will stake my right to believe, pinned and recessed are best. (maybe because they bring top dollar).

 

[halfmoonclip]

Stan, the Luddite, here. For reasons I cannot articulate but upon which I will stake my right to believe, pinned and recessed are best. (maybe because they bring top dollar).

Hard to argue with that reasoning, and somehow older=cooler/more desirable.
But I'm entirely satisfied with current S&W production, and other modern arms.
Moon

 

[westernrover]

Pinned or not, run a "Match" Brownells Range Rod through the bore and see if they didn't choke the barrel where they crush fit it into the frame. Plenty of people will say, "well, it shoots fine," but I can't think of a reason a bore should be choked at the beginning -- maybe at the end. I've had unpinned S&W with a two-piece barrel and shroud through which the rod passed smoothly, and one-piece barrels where the rod dragged in the bore through the frame, and others where it would not fit through the choke at the frame at all. I'd tolerate some slight drag at most. I believe Dan Wesson and Karl Lewis had the best solution. I don't have any pinned barrels, but I imagine they would also be free of this vice.

 

[The Kingfish]

Doesn't a pinned barrel need to be perfectly aligned for the pin to fit?

Seems like a nice way to avoid canted barrels.

 

[westernrover]

At first, but what do you do when you need to reset the barrel-to-cylinder gap?

 

[I6turbo]

.... but a rim recess for a centerfire is just a dirt catcher and snag corner on the reload. But somebody at S&W thought it was somehow a sign of strength.

I wonder if they felt that the recess made the guns look better with rounds in the cylinder? They definitely went beyond just the "functional and necessary" to make their guns look nice and well-finished back then...

 

[StrawHat]

Doesn't a pinned barrel need to be perfectly aligned for the pin to fit?

Seems like a nice way to avoid canted barrels.

No, the pin is not supposed to touch the barrel or the threads. There is about 5 degrees of rotation when properly installed.

At first, but what do you do when you need to reset the barrel-to-cylinder gap?

Redrill the notch through the threads or just enlarge the existing notch with a file.

Kevin

 

[Rodfac]

As for recessed cylinders, they probably made sense when shooters were using balloon head cartridges. I have some vintage 45LC balloon head, and I pulled several case heads off in the sizing die. It took hardly any effort, and it was very time consuming knocking the case body out of the die. Those balloon head cases might have been appropriate for black powder, but I bet the weak heads were a continuing problem with smokeless. I believe with modern solid head cartridges, the case head has sufficient support without the recesses. And it is easy to look at the side of the cylinder to see if there are cartridges in there. Popping the cylinder open to examine for loaded rounds takes two hands.

I always find recessed cylinders a pain to clean. Cleaning those shallow recesses of debris is time consuming and I need a pointy thing for the rim holes.

Yep...while I like the aesthetics of the old P&R Smiths, some turkeys did get by the QC dept....Bangor Punta was no friend to those of us who longed for a return to the 50's level of finishing and craftsmanship. My take on the recessed chambers (charging holes in S&W parlance), any gunk in them hindered cartridge seating...always wondered how LEO's handled that problem. YMMv Rod

 

[Gary W. Strange]

I have 5 beautiful S&W revolvers. Won't part with them this side of heaven.
1976 blued model 36-2 with a 3in bbl
1981 model 29-2 came new to me with 4in bbl
1983 686 no dash 4in and it ain't going nowhere
1985 624 in 4in and one with a 6.5in bbl

I wanted a 4” 624 when they came out, in the mid 1980s. No way I could afford on back then. I grew up reading Elmer Keith, Skitter Skeleton and Sheriff Jim Wilson and loved the .44 Special because of what they wrote about it. Several years ago, I found a new, never fired, 4” 624, in the box, with papers and cleaning kit. It is one of the revolvers, I would have to be very hungry and close to starving to part with. I had John Culina make a set of black and white ebony grips for it and John Bianchi make a three person cross draw holster for it. It’s a perfect woods carry revolver.

 

[LV Gun]

I have pinned and no pins can’t tell any difference in shooting but the pinned barrels and recessed cylinders are a thing of the past that we will never see again. They were built in a time when fine machining was valued by people unlike what we see today.

 

[Ethan Verity]

At least the old pinned barrels of vintage S&W revolvers are guaranteed to actually be properly indexed... I have seen multiple examples of modern crush-fit revolver barrels that are either over, or under clocked (indexed) from the factory. This results in the front sight leaning one way or the other, requiring a lot of windage to be used up just to find zero (and that's assuming you have an adjustable rear sight, otherwise it's even more annoying).

 

[StrawHat]

At least the old pinned barrels of vintage S&W revolvers are guaranteed to actually be properly indexed... I have seen multiple examples of modern crush-fit revolver barrels that are either over, or under clocked (indexed) from the factory. This results in the front sight leaning one way or the other, requiring a lot of windage to be used up just to find zero (and that's assuming you have an adjustable rear sight, otherwise it's even more annoying).

Not really. There is about 5 degrees of play in the pinned barrels. Handle enough and you will see sights leaning to 11:00 or 1:00.

Heck, Askins wrote of rotating the barrels on revolvers for the Border Patrol so they would hit closer to point of aim.

Kevin

 

[Ethan Verity]

Not really. There is about 5 degrees of play in the pinned barrels. Handle enough and you will see sights leaning to 11:00 or 1:00.

Heck, Askins wrote of rotating the barrels on revolvers for the Border Patrol so they would hit closer to point of aim.

Kevin

Oh, that's too bad. I thought they were a more precise fit than that.

 

[StrawHat]

Oh, that's too bad. I thought they were a more precise fit than that.

It doesn’t mean you can turn them by hand. Just that there is a tolerance built in so the front sight can be moved laterally to align point of impact with point of aim. The notch in the barrel is cut before the barrel is screwed into placed. The pin fits through the notch.

It is easy to image old stuff is superior to new versions. Reality, bad stuff has been made in all eras. Except the New Century. But once they cheapened the New Century, it snowballed!

Kevin