Pioneer Machining & Weapons Systems

[Dan Forrester]

Any one ever purchase a breech ring and block from Mike Riker at Pioneer Machining & Weapons Systems? From some other threads Ive seen he makes modern small breech rings and blocks for 20mm up to 40mm cannons. Unfortunately no web sight.

Id love to make a cannon which fired a modern cartridge like 20X102mm Vulcan, 25X137mm Bushmaster or 30X173mm GAU-8.

I see new barrels for sale on gun broker and it seems like brass and projectiles are relatively common. Unfortunately military surplus brass (aluminum) must be destroyed. Really unfortunate since this can be purchased by the pound as scrap but it must be "mutilated" before leaving the auction.

Just curious if anyone has any experience.

Thanks, Dan

 

[Arizona_Mike]

No but I am very interested.

Mike

 

[Dan Forrester]

Lucky for you he is right there in your home state of Arizona. Looks like he is some town called Laveen Arizona.

Heres the thread that caught my attention originally:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_21/366777_.html

If I can get a breech ring and block like that and fit it with a new Pac Nor 20mm barrel which they make new and sell for $720 you have a functioning 20mm! Of course I would then need to make a carriage of some type for it but thats part of the fun!

Another idea was to build something like single shot 37mm Hotchkiss cannon. It could use those surplus 37mm aluminum casings. A few companies make cannon projectile molds. Could use a zinc or copper gas check. Maybe a 40mm zinc pusher turned down in a lathe as a sort of gas check.

It seems like the real time to get started on a project like this was prior to 2010 before surplus brass and projectiles larger than 50 BMG needed to be destroyed. But there is still plenty of it out there. Its just 5 or 10 times more expensive than it used to be.

Ill give him a call some time this week and see what I can find out. Ill give you an update.

Dan

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Not that I would mind building a 13th or 14th NFA weapon, but I wonder if his breach could be adapted to a non-NFA "bag gun" or blank shell + projectile non-NFA setup. Might be a lot cheaper and easier to load.

I love my sub gun but going the cannon route holds more appeal to me than going belt-fed machine gun next.

I assume you need to replace 20x102mm electric primers with percussion?

Mike

PS. Laveen is far West Phoenix metro area (about an hour from me). I'd be willing to do footwork for you for the learning opportunity.

 

[Dan Forrester]

I called him on Monday and left a message but go no return call. Ill try again in another week and post an update if I hear anything back.

I see once fired brass for a little less than $3.00 a casing. I guess thats pretty reasonable.

I don't see why you couldn't make a non NFA version. As far as I know a destructive device receiver is a title 1 weapon.

As far as I know from reading when you de-prime a 20mm electric case the primer consists of two parts: One part is a bushing and the other is an electric primer. If you remove the electric primer from the bushing you can insert a .50 bmg primer. There are also percussion primers for 25X137mm and 30X173mm which I believe fit without the bushing since these were designed from the ground up as percussion fired rounds. Im not 100% on this; its just what I have gathered from reading.

Ill keep you posted, Dan

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Did you ever hear back???

I was looking out for him at the SAR show and did not see him.

Mike

 

[Dan Forrester]

No I never heard back from the original voice mail I left. I called a second time about 3 weeks later and no answer that time either. I didn't leave a message the second time. Id be very curious what he has to offer.

Id really like to know if he has any leads on new manufacture barrels. I've been thinking more about what i'd like to make. I'm really thinking something like this 37mm parrot rifle only breech fired:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNeOv60cYpc

Could use those 37mm or 40mm once fired aluminum hulls from the gas guns. Seems like these are available from a couple different places.

https://brassmanbrass.com/product-category/37mm-cases-40mm-cases/

Then have a bullet mold made and just cast led projectiles. basically making a modern black powder Hotchkiss Cannon.

The problem for most of the cannon owners is that you can never really shoot the things since brass and projectiles are so rare. Most of the M3 antitank gun owners are paying $100 each for brass casings on ebay.

With a set up like this casings could be had for a few dollars each, projectiles could be cast yourself, primers are 209 shot shell primers, and the powder is just black powder cannon powder. You could reasonably afford to actually head out and fire off a couple dozen rounds each time you go shooting!

Sorry to keep rambling. Im just getting excited!

Dan

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Generally aluminum is not reloadable since it work hardens and you really can't anneal it without normalizing it.

37 and 40mm are really low pressure, not really for cannon.

Either a bag gun or a two piece gun are starting to sound very attractive. Since neither use "fixed ammunition" they would not be NFA either as far as I can tell even if breech loading.

Mike

 

[Dan Forrester]

I was hoping it could be used since it would only be used for black powder. Most black powder cannons don't even have a cartridge case at all. I figure if black powder cannons can withstand the chamber pressure without any casing, they certainly could stand up with a casing made from aluminum.

Does this make sense? Sounds like you have more experience than I do with this. My only experience is with my M203 and 37mm gas gun and they are far from any kind of a cannon.

This thread has some good reading:

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/blackp...(sleeves)-in-1-000'-bore-size-coming-soon/60/

Thanks, Dan

 

[jestertoo]

Howdy. That's my gun on ar15.com. It's coming along, here's a newer thread on it

Here's an update on mine:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_21/456150_My_20mm_project_part_3.html

Here's a different thread about 20mm builds:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_21/450569_Headspace_Gauges_for_20mm.html

Mike has built up to 40mm cannons, but the breech I bought can only handle up to the 30x113. 30x173 is too big on the bolt face.

 

[jestertoo]

I just talked to Mike on the phone, so he's still alive and kicking.

Oh, definitely go to big sandy mg shoot @ Wikieup, AZ. All of the cannon guys, including Mike, will be out there. I think a buddy and I are going to fly out.

http://mgshooters.com/

18-20 March 2016

 

[Dan Forrester]

Hey thanks for the update! It really looks great with the wheels on it!

So if you don't mind I have a couple questions:

How much did you pay for your breech?

Where are you purchasing your 20mm brass and projectiles? From what I see they all must be destroyed now and cannot be sold as surplus. I want a gun I can actually fire and get components for!

Did the breech come threaded for the barrel from mike?

How difficult is it to change out the barrel? Could I have one barrel in 20mm and then another in .50 bmg fit to the gun and then just swap them out or would this be too complicated.

Who made the receiver for that electrically fired 20mm? Looks like a pretty simple set up.

Thanks so much for all the good information. Its really coming together with that last update!

Dan

 

[jestertoo]

So if you don't mind I have a couple questions:

How much did you pay for your breech?
- $4k

Where are you purchasing your 20mm brass and projectiles? From what I see they all must be destroyed now and cannot be sold as surplus. I want a gun I can actually fire and get components for!
- CDVS.us has all the brass and projectiles. Widners for WC87x powder and BMG primers. You have to either sleeve your primers, or swage the base down to use them. I have around 100 brass cases and I think that will be a lifetime of shooting and reloading.

Did the breech come threaded for the barrel from mike?
- yes, it's threaded 2"xsomething. I had a local machine shop thread my barrel for the breech and a muzzle brake I had laying around. Cost me about $100

How difficult is it to change out the barrel? Could I have one barrel in 20mm and then another in .50 bmg fit to the gun and then just swap them out or would this be too complicated.
- VERY simple. If I had a 50bmg barrel in a sleeve to fit the 2" threads (and it fit into the clamps on my gun), it would take me about 5 minutes, tops.

Who made the receiver for that electrically fired 20mm? Looks like a pretty simple set up.
- The owner built it himself. Very simple and nice. I'm looking at maybe converting to electric myself as it would be very simple. I could remove my hammer/firing pin and slide in an electrically isolated firing pin. You can get the electric primers for $1 ea. Right now I'm using BMG primers, but being able to use both is kinda neat.

 

[Dan Forrester]

Thank you for the information jestertoo!

Ill try Mike again once everything from shot show settles down.

Dan

 

[ELR Researcher]

jestertoo:

Did you try the M36A2, 20mm primers that CDVS sells? Yes, .50 BMG primers are much cheaper but the sleeved brass is also a lot more and I'm a bit uncomfortable about the BMG primer consistently igniting up to twice the powder charge. I'm interested in building a .50/20 Improved for unlimited range shooting (2000 yards and beyond) and am unable to rationalize all the work it would take to build off the 14.5x114 Russian case (Berden primed).

I'll probably design my own action but would still like to consider what Mike Riker might be able to offer. [I live in California so am also unsure whether his action - which looks like the type that are used with test barrels (and not sold to the public as best I have found) - could be registered here. If I build a one-off of my own design I don't even need to register it (legally) - though I would for the purpose of avoiding hassles in the field.] I called Mike's number a couple of times but no pick up and no answer machine came on, call just times out, "can't be reached at this time."

Thanks in advance for any info you might provide.

 

[jestertoo]

Did you try the M36A2, 20mm primers that CDVS sells? Yes, .50 BMG primers are much cheaper but the sleeved brass is also a lot more and I'm a bit uncomfortable about the BMG primer consistently igniting up to twice the powder charge. I'm interested in building a .50/20 Improved for unlimited range shooting (2000 yards and beyond) and am unable to rationalize all the work it would take to build off the 14.5x114 Russian case (Berden primed).

-- I haven't done the M36 primers as all of my brass is swaged to fit bmg primers. The BMG primer lights the 20mm rounds just fine for me. I think Anzio recommends the 20mm primers for faster, more accurate ignition though. I'm considering making a conversion to electric for giggles since it's pretty easy, and remove the disturbance of pulling the hammer back and over it's break over point.

I'll probably design my own action but would still like to consider what Mike Riker might be able to offer. [I live in California so am also unsure whether his action - which looks like the type that are used with test barrels (and not sold to the public as best I have found) - could be registered here. If I build a one-off of my own design I don't even need to register it (legally) - though I would for the purpose of avoiding hassles in the field.] I called Mike's number a couple of times but no pick up and no answer machine came on, call just times out, "can't be reached at this time."

-- He's definitely old school when it comes to modern communications. Single shot falling block breeches should be good to go in Cali. If it's not barreled, you can specify any caliber you want. .40/20mm?

Thanks in advance for any info you might provide.