Pistol-Packing Pennsylvania Mom Sues PC

[dcal]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,457367,00.html

HARRISBURG, Pa. — A Pennsylvania woman Monday sued a county sheriff who revoked her concealed-weapons permit after she upset fellow parents by wearing her holstered pistol to her 5-year-old daughter's soccer game.

Meleanie Hain alleges in a suit filed in a Harrisburg federal court that Lebanon County Sheriff Michael DeLeo violated her Second Amendment rights and prosecuted her maliciously when he took away her permit in September.

Hain, 30, successfully appealed the revocation last month, although the judge who restored her permit questioned her judgment and said she "scared the devil" out of others who attended the Sept. 11 soccer game.

Hain said Monday her home-based baby-sitting service has suffered, her children have been harassed, and she has been ostracized by her neighbors because of DeLeo's actions. In one instance, she said, a neighbor who saw Hain in a local store had the manager ask her to leave because she was carrying her handgun.

"I fought for my right, and now I'm still being punished," she said.

DeLeo's office referred questions to the county's attorney, George Christianson, who did not immediately return a telephone call seeking comment.

DeLeo said at Hain's Oct. 14 appeal hearing he pulled her license after fielding the parents' complaints. He said he based his decision on a section of state law that prohibits concealed-weapons permits from being given to people whose character and reputation make them a danger to public safety.

Hain has said she previously carried her handgun openly to soccer games and practices and other public places without any problem. Her attorney, Matthew Weisberg, said DeLeo had no legal right to take away her permit.

"The sheriff just rides into town and without any hearing, explanation or anything, takes away her license and forces her into court," Weisberg said.

 

[Jim K]

"people whose character and reputation make them a danger to public safety"

I wonder if he can make that one stick, that just carrying a gun makes her a danger to public safety. If so, then isn't the state itself making people a danger by issuing permits?

I think the sheriff will lose this one.

Jim

 

[Deanimator]

I think the sheriff will lose this one.

What's REALLY going to sink the Sheriff is that he made some VERY damaging public statements to the media regarding his REAL intentions vis a vis the revocation. Given his on the record statement that he revoked Ms. Hain's LTCF to "send a message" about open carry, he's got pretty much an impossible talk of proving that he really believed that there was a REAL "character" issue in the revocation.

 

[SaxonPig]

Old news.

Permit was ordered returned by a judge.

Sheriff should be fired for abusing authority.

Maybe mom shouldn't wear a gun openly to a soccer practice. Not exactly a high-crime area and what's the point in upsetting people? Choose your battles.

 

[Deanimator]

Maybe mom shouldn't wear a gun openly to a soccer practice. Not exactly a high-crime area and what's the point in upsetting people? Choose your battles.

A few months ago, a guy went into a Lane Bryant store in Tinley Park, Illinois and shot six women, killing five of them. I've been to Tinly Park on a number of occasions. I wouldn't call it any more of a high-crime area than where Meleanie Hain lives. Yet five people are dead.

Are you aware of some reason why someone couldn't go to that soccer field in Pennsylvania and do the same thing? If not, what's your recommend response to such an act?

 

[FoMoGo]

In Va it is illegal to carry in a courthouse, in a public school, airport terminal, place of worship "without good cause", or where posted.
I carry open daily, it is my right. It is legal.
As far as concealed... I would carry in a place of worship. Why, because there is no less chance of needing it there than any where else.


Jim

 

[TTAmoneypit]

I live in PA and also have a CCW--this story pisses me off

why did she allow anyone to see her gun or holster ? she was either showing it to show it off or to maybe intimidate people--big NO NO:banghead:

CCW means to keep it concealed and not to scare people--it's there if you need it

I hate stupid people

 

[BBQLS1]

Old news.

Permit was ordered returned by a judge.

Sheriff should be fired for abusing authority.

Maybe mom shouldn't wear a gun openly to a soccer practice. Not exactly a high-crime area and what's the point in upsetting people? Choose your battles.

I agree. I wouldn't walk around holding a sign that says "I have $5000 in my pocket." Even though it's my right.

Still, this isn't old news. She is actually suing the Sheriff for damages because of the fiasco. Apparently her OC statement with the Sheriffs help has damaged her home child daycare business and has also caused people to report a woman with a gun while in grocery stores and whatnot.

 

[BBQLS1]

I live in PA and also have a CCW--this story pisses me off

why did she allow anyone to see her gun or holster ? she was either showing it to show it off or to maybe intimidate people--big NO NO

CCW means to keep it concealed and not to scare people--it's there if you need it

I hate stupid people

She was open carrying. Which is apparently legal there.

 

[Sinixstar]

I live in PA and also have a CCW--this story pisses me off

why did she allow anyone to see her gun or holster ? she was either showing it to show it off or to maybe intimidate people--big NO NO

CCW means to keep it concealed and not to scare people--it's there if you need it

I hate stupid people

I was kind of thinking the same thing. If it was that visible, obviously it wasn't all that concealed.
Absolutely she's within her rights to carry - but what good does broadcasting it do? Even more so when you're in an environment where you know it may make some people nervous.
Put it under your jacket, go about your day - don't make a big deal out of it. Won't be nothin' if you don't make it somethin.

 

[Zach S]

We dont know how it was un-concealed. Could be as simple as her getting hot and taking her coat off. In the fall months where I'm out all day I'll leave the house wearing a coat, sweatshirt, t shirt, and tank top. Round lunchtime I'm down to the t shirt (tank top is to keep the gun dry), and around supper time I'm back to the sweatshirt and the coat. I hate this time of year. OC is a grey area in NC, so I don't do it in the public, and I hate it every time I'm sweatin like a whore in church because I'm wearing two shirts or cant take my coat off.

It doesn't take a whole lot for folks to freak out about a pistol, doesn't matter they see it or not. I dated one girl who revealed she was an anti when she heard an ad for Rex's gun shop on the radio. She really freaked out when I told her why I was turning the truck around to take her back home. I had dinner and a movie alone, and because of the way she acted, I enjoyed it. I spent the money I saved by going on a date with myself on ammo.

 

[Huddog]

Those of us who carry will always face the ignorant and aborant behavior of those who don't and will never understand why we carry. The Sheriff on the other hand is an elected official and sounds like he may have made a decision based on what he thought his voters wanted. Because he is an elected official he faces recourse for his decisions every four years.

 

[ZeBool]

I don't think we should have to hide our guns from sheeple because it "scares"
them. It's legal. Too bad. Get over it.

 

[General Geoff]

To all you people saying "she's stupid for not concealing," well thanks for sharing your opinion. Open carry just happens to be perfectly legal WITHOUT any license here in PA (anywhere outside of Philadelphia, anyway), and as such it is the very right guaranteed by both the 2nd amendment and Pennsylvania's state constitution ("The right of the people to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned."). The state supreme court has upheld this various times. Open carrying of a firearm in Pennsylvania is not even valid reasonable articulable suspicion to stop and question someone, let alone revoke their license to carry, or charge them with any crime, including disorderly conduct.

So with all that information in mind, you can cover up if it tickles your fancy. The point is that you shouldn't have to.

 

[Deanimator]

CCW means to keep it concealed and not to scare people--it's there if you need it

In PA it's a License to CARRY Firearms, NOT "conceal".

The blissninnie's OPINIONS don't count.

Sheriff Axe-Handle's OPINIONS don't count.

The LAW counts.

The LAW in Pennsylvania allows open carry.

End of story.

 

[jahwarrior]

I live in PA and also have a CCW--this story pisses me off

why did she allow anyone to see her gun or holster ? she was either showing it to show it off or to maybe intimidate people--big NO NO

CCW means to keep it concealed and not to scare people--it's there if you need it

I hate stupid people

so, it pisses you off more that some lady was carrying legally than someone's 2A right was violated?

i don't know how you stand all your self loathing....

 

[zminer]

He said he based his decision on a section of state law that prohibits concealed-weapons permits from being given to people whose character and reputation make them a danger to public safety.

Is this actually how the law is worded? If so, I would be concerned that it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Picture this:

Woman buys a 1911 to wear on her hip, as it is apparently legal to do in PA. People get freaked out by her doing so, and start talking to one another about how she is frightening. Finally, something happens and someone calls the cops. Cop asks around and everyone has the impression that this woman is dangerous and can't be trusted with a firearm. Woman is legally disarmed, because of the way the law is written.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the law was written in this way so that police could disarm someone who was known to be a troublemaker, but hasn't actually done anything wrong. But, that cuts both ways - against people who shouldn't be able to have guns and those who should. That's why discretion is a problematic thing in laws like these.

 

[zminer]

Silly me, this information is readily accessible:

The state code lists several factors which preclude issuance of a license, including, but not limited to:
(1) being of a character and reputation that the applicant is likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
(2) currently charged with or convicted of certain crimes;
(3) being a habitual drunkard or abuser of controlled substances;
(4) being of unsound mind or having been involuntarily committed to a mental institution; or
(5) having been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces.

Yup, sounds like it gives pretty wide latitude, although courts may have narrowed this somewhat. Anyone know if PA has had court cases which involve interpretation of this wording?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i wonder how she'll present in court. what hubbys occupation is that puts her at risk. its easy to be made to seem a flake

 

[goon]

I don't think we should have to hide our guns from sheeple because it "scares"
them. It's legal. Too bad. Get over it.

What he said.
There are lots of things that people do that make me uncomfortable. That doesn't mean I get to tell them they can't do it just because it puts my panties in a bunch.
Other people have rights too - gotta remember that your rights aren't the only ones that matter.

 

[anymanusa]

Wow, what a bunch of holier than thou's in this thread. She, as do many others in this fine country of ours, has a right to OPENLY carry her pistol. The CCW part comes into play when in the vehicle, as no open carry statute applies.

I would excersize extreme care and judgement if it were me, but calling someone stupid for excersizing their open carry right??? That's very liberal.

 

[Sinixstar]

I don't think we should have to hide our guns from sheeple because it "scares"
them. It's legal. Too bad. Get over it.

so, it pisses you off more that some lady was carrying legally than someone's 2A right was violated?

i don't know how you stand all your self loathing....

The LAW counts.

The LAW in Pennsylvania allows open carry.

End of story.

Here in Nevada, it's illegal to smoke in certain places - places that prepare/serve food for example.
Now - if i go out to dinner with my girlfriend, as in usual, after we're done eating, i like to have a cigarette. Nothing outrageous about that now is it?
Now - given the law - I could stand literally right outside the door to such an establishment, and blow smoke in people's faces as they come in and out of the building.
If anybody were to complain, i could jump up and down about "it's my god given right to smoke here! it's the law! screw you it's the law! it's my legal right!". More then likely, someone will call the manager over, the manager will have a word with me - and I will do the same thing. The manager will get pissed, call the cops - and when they get there, i'll say the same thing. Cops may give me a hard time and run me off - and I can file a lawsuit about how my rights were violated.
You know what that makes me? An arrogant self-centered prick.

The alternative - is i can walk half a dozen steps away from the door - be halfway aware of where i'm blowing my smoke - and there's no problems. Everybody's happy. I get my cigarette, other people don't have to deal with it too much - nobody complains, nobody's rights are taken away, life goes on.

The same situation applies here. Is keeping your gun generally out of sight such a big deal? No. Legally - do you HAVE to do it? No, you don't HAVE to.
However, fact of the matter is, there's a lot of people in this country, many of whom are going to disagree on a number of topics. Now, you can either be a self-centered prick and jump up and down screaming about whatever it is you want to scream about - or you can quietly go about exercising your rights in a way that doesn't disturb others.
Generally, that's what we try to do in a civilized society. We may not all agree on things, but at least let's try to muddle through it without pissin eachother off too much.

Just because you're not waving your gun around in somebody's face, doesn't mean you're practicing your rights any less then someone who is. All it means is that you're making at least a half-hearted attempt at generally not trying to piss people off.

Maybe i'm coming from another planet in saying that, or maybe i'm completely and totally crazy for saying it - but somehow I don't think so.

Are the authorities out of line for yanking her permit? Absolutely. Was it an overblown situation from the start? Absolutely.
But again to jump up and down and scream "it's the law it's the law it's the law, rah rah rah!" Without even a trace of regard for other people's mental state - is well, a little self-centered and arrogant.

It's simple - just don't make an issue where there is none.

 

[Aran]

Blowing smoke in someone's faces is actively being an *******.

Standing there minding your own business is just standing there minding your own business, whether you're open carrying, wearing a fursuit, painted bright pink, or dressed like a clown.

 

[Sinixstar]

Blowing smoke in someone's faces is actively being an *******.

Standing there minding your own business is just standing there minding your own business, whether you're open carrying, wearing a fursuit, painted bright pink, or dressed like a clown.

If i'm standing around smoking a cigarette - and it bothers somebody - how is that my problem? I'm not doing anything wrong.
Screw that - it's my right. If i want to stand next to the door and smoke, i will- got a problem with it? Call the cops, i'll call my lawyer.

see where i'm goin with this?

 

[General Geoff]

If i'm standing around smoking a cigarette - and it bothers somebody - how is that my problem? I'm not doing anything wrong.

Correct.

If i want to stand next to the door and smoke, i will- got a problem with it? Call the cops, i'll call my lawyer.

You cease to be harmless when your presence is a detriment to the health of those around you. By intentionally smoking directly adjacent to a (presumably public) through way, you are generating a cloud of noxious fumes that will be inhaled by others before it dissipates. While technically not illegal, it is rude.

Carrying a firearm openly at a soccer game poses no threat to anyone, and there is no public or private health issue. Guns do not emit smoke (at least not till you discharge them! ), nor do they somehow make the environment around them less healthy. The comparison here is similar, but not exactly the same.