Plastic Case Ammo

[yesit'sloaded]

Why not? Shotgun shells are made of plastic with a metal base and they seem to do just fine. If ammo prices are going up because of metals could you just use a strong plastic for the case. Is it not cost-effective, or am I missing some basic thing related to the physics of a rifle over a shotgun (chamber pressure?)?

 

[MisterPX]

Plastic casing have been tried, ie the now defunct Natec. Plastic case seperation from teh brass rim. The extraction of a centerfire round is more violent in a semi rifle than that of a shotgun. The plastic may also start to melt (unconfirmed to me) if left in a hot chamber.

 

[rangerruck]

I tried them , ONCE!!! almost ruined my cz bolt action, not even a semi auto!!!

 

[yesit'sloaded]

So it's a case to rim issue. Plastic technology has gotten so much better it might actually work if the right engineers got on it. I'm a Mech. E., so I'll just stick to designing cars and things that go bang along with the occasional boring HVAC system.

 

[foghornl]

Not sure how well rifle ammo would work, particularly if shooting a whole bunch in a short time frame, but I do sort of very vaguely remember some all-plastic case 12-Ga shells from the late '60's or so.

IIRC, the brand was "Alcan".

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

A rather large ammount of plastic .223 rem rounds were recently (within the past 5 years) made and a good bit is still floating around. There were in pretty assorted (random) colors. The only caution mentioned on the box was not to use them in fluted chambers.

Plated steel cases are not really any more resource consuming then the plastic anyway. The reason it was done was for weight, not cost.

 

[MudPuppy]

I've got some plastic cases tracer ammo at home. (well, tracer that doesn't...).

It has a brass rim/bottom like a shotgun shell.

Only fired a couple of rounds out of it, so can't say how workable it is--guy I was shooting will worked at a local gunstore and said they carried it a while back and had a lot of returns. No probems with the limted rounds i fired in functionality (oly ar-15 in 5.56) but one of the cases was split.

 

[GigaBuist]

If it works on shotguns I wonder if other older BP cartridges could make it happen? For instance the .410 has a max pressure of 13,500 psi and .45 Colt is 14,000 psi. Doesn't sound like too much of a stretch to make it happen there.

 

[MinnMooney]

I really don't see the point in plastic rifle casings. The initial cost may be lower but for anyone who reloads, it would cost more 'cause I doubt that they can be reloaded.
For non-reloaders there may be a cost savings and hopefully the mfg'rs will make the plastic biodegradable.

 

[1911JMB]

Last year small arms review did an article on a new kind. It had to be what LeibstandarteAdH is talking about. They said it worked great, except in the fluted chamber which they just had to try for the greater good of the article. It caused collasal failure. As I recall chunks of plastic were stuck in the flutes and had to be scraped out.

 

[Pigspitter]

I've seen some plastic .223 casings at the range, looked like a .410 neck down?

 

[trainwreck100]

I don't think plastic casings are the answer, I think letting the ammo companies know we don't like their increase in price is the answer. Even if brass has doubled in price (I think it's done more than that actually, but that's beside the point) there's really not enough of it in a box of ammo to justify doubling the price of the shells. Lead is still a negligible cost, it could increase tenfold and still be cheap. The cost of ammo isn't in materials, it's in production and transportation. When the price increases, the cost becomes lining for someone's pockets.

 

[brian923]

i have used plastic shelled .223 ammo in my colt AR. all of them shoot, and extracted perfecrtly. i did not, how ever, shoot them fastly in a hot chamber. dont want to. i ll stick with good ol' brass.

 

[Tony Williams]

What is easy with a revolver or shotgun cartridge is much more difficult with a rifle round developing perhaps three times the chamber pressure, and especially with an automatic weapon which requires the base to be strong enough to withstand a violent wrench from the extractor. As far as I can gather, the composite cases with brass bases sort of work, with reservations.

To make all-plastic rifle cases you need a different type of action. The US Army is playing at the moment with plastic cased/telescoped 5.56mm ammo as part of their Lightweight Small Arms Technologies programme. The military interest is in weight saving: the plastic rounds are 33% lighter than the metal ones (and caseless 50% lighter).

 

[GigaBuist]

The cost of ammo isn't in materials, it's in production and transportation.

Looked at the price of gasoline or diesel lately?

 

[MisterPX]

MAterial costs have gone up, check teh prices on lead and copper lately? Plus a weak dollar doesn't help if outsourcing raw materials from abroad.

 

[The Annoyed Man]

Tony, I remember reading about the caseless stuff a while back. As I recall, it relied on electric ignition, which seemed to me at the time like a recipe for disaster if your weapon gets wet. Whatever happened to that?

 

[MudPuppy]

I think the HK G11's were using mechanical ignition.

An electric ignition, and this is me just wild speculatin', would use an arc type ignitor--like that mean little biting thing on the BBQ pit, and would easily function when wet.

Honestly though, I'm not sure caseless is something that'll be used anytime soon. We're transport heavy and the hummer's always have plenty of ammo available. (so you don't have to always hump all that ammo.)

 

[Acheron]

The G11 did use mechanical ignition. They were great rifles-the real reason that Germany didn't adopt them was that the prototypes were submitted to field trials in 1990 and Germany was too busy putting itself back together to spend money on new rifles. Plus the USSR was about done and so there didn't seem to be any real need for new rifles. But I think that caseless ammo should definitely be invested in. It would simplify things a lot.

 

[CWL]

I don't think plastic rifle casing would stand-up in the long term like brass (or metal) would.

Depending on the plastic, it can absorb water over time, crack/deform and allow moisture/elements to penetrate at the bullet neck, crack and shatter, be vulnerable to industrial solvents, diesel fuel etc, become brittle over time -especially along the critical rim, and may be damaged by UV exposure.

Sure, you can probably formulate some "super polymers" but then the cost would probably be more than brass.

 

[0007]

I know where there is about 28,000 rds of plastic-cased .38spl loaded with a 130gr FMJ. It looks just like the .223 rounds looked. I'm thinking it would be a fine target load for either the.357 or .38spl if the price was right.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I was thinking along the lines that if a shotgun shell could be reloaded, why not a plastic pistol or rifle round. I also always wondered why plastic shotgun shells don't melt or burn. Is it not hot enough for a long enough time?

 

[chris in va]

I can see it working in a revolver that doesn't require extraction.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Jackpot! Seems like exactly what I was thinking about has been done before. A guy named Dardick came up with a plastic cased round called a Tround. It was triangular shaped and could be reloaded quite easily by just replacing the bullet, powder, and primer. They even made one in .50 for a machine gun.

http://www.cartridgeid.com/Dardick.jpg

 

[Tony Williams]

I'm not sure whether the revolver Trounds could be reloaded, but I'm pretty certain that the rifle/MG ones couldn't. Fired .50 Tround cases commonly showed splits.