I've been plinking around with rifles for some time, hunting, and military trained. Now i'm trying to learn about adjusting the scope to the yardage in the field, accounting for wind, i've read on some sniper pages and books about it all but with out the training or background i get lost pretty quick especially when it comes to minute of angle (loses me evry time). i was just wondering if anyone out there could help me understand or maybe no of any good training books or websites. (please remember no back ground in distance shooting only up close and personal, so please use laimens terms, thanks)
please explain Presicion shooting
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Zak Smith
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article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part II - Optics
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part III - Shooting
scrat
Member
hey joe welcome to the high road. ok here is a lync on horus vision. its awesome. go through it spend some time. play the game they have. it will teach you a bit about MIL dot, windage elevation. you will get to understand it a bit and then like me you will start looking around. To duplicate what you learned out in the range and field.
http://www.horusvision.com/
http://www.horusvision.com/img/hrsgame.swf
http://www.horusvision.com/
http://www.horusvision.com/img/hrsgame.swf
scrat
Member
The second link is the best everyone should try it.
james_bond
Member
here is the entire copy of the US's Military..
FM 23-10 SNIPER TRAINING
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-10/
FM 23-10 SNIPER TRAINING
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-10/
whiskeytangofoxtrot
Member
Ditto on Badlands, Bobby and Steve will bring you up to speed in a hurry for a little of nothing. I was in the same boat, just digging for any knowledge until I hit the Badlands. They are first class instructors and they have actually been in the field with the trade. If they can't tell you, they will take you out and show you.
Might I suggest an Appleseed Shoot http://www.appleseedinfo.org There are going to be several in and around Utah in 2008, and over 100 around the nation.
You will get the fundamentals needed for shooting out to 500 yards. The basics of wind estimation/correction, as well as range estimation/compensation will be taught. What is learned at an Appleseed Shoot will give you a foundation to build upon for future shooting skills.
The Appleseed Shoots also offer an opportunity to get some structured instruction, but in a more relaxed atmosphere, and at a very good price, of only $70 for the two full days of instruction (kids under 21 and all Military shoot FREE).
This might just be the thing to get your feet wet with some practical long range shooting.
Feel free to PM me with questions about the details if you wish.
You will get the fundamentals needed for shooting out to 500 yards. The basics of wind estimation/correction, as well as range estimation/compensation will be taught. What is learned at an Appleseed Shoot will give you a foundation to build upon for future shooting skills.
The Appleseed Shoots also offer an opportunity to get some structured instruction, but in a more relaxed atmosphere, and at a very good price, of only $70 for the two full days of instruction (kids under 21 and all Military shoot FREE).
This might just be the thing to get your feet wet with some practical long range shooting.
Feel free to PM me with questions about the details if you wish.
sig226
Member
Minute Of Angle:
A circle has 360 Degrees. Each Degree is divided into 60 Minutes. (Each Minute is divided into 60 Seconds.)
When you fire a group of shots, you aim at an exact point at the target, but the bullets don't hit that exact point. If you're a good shot, you would put five bullet holes within one inch of your aiming point. What you're really measuring is the distance across the centers of each bullet's path. You fire five shots at 100 yards with a .308 and the widest distance between the edges of two bullet holes is 1.308". You want to know the distance between the center of each bullet hole, so you subtract .308". The centers of your five shots are 1" apart.
If you drew the whole set up on paper, there would be a point at one end of the paper where the muzzle of your gun was. 100 yards away, your five shots are 1" apart. Let's say they're spread from left to right. You draw a line from the muzzle to the shot on the right. Next, you draw a line from the muzzle to the shot on the left.
Now you have an angle. Angles can be measured in Degrees, like right angles or 45 degree angles. The angle between your right hand shot and your left hand shot measures 1/60th of one Degree. This is one Minute.
Since the lines of an angle are always moving away from each other, they will be farther apart at 200 yards than they were at 100 yards.
At 200 yards, your five shots would be 2" apart, but if you drew the lines to the muzzle, the angle would still measure 1/60th of one Degree. Minute Of Angle just happens to work out to about one inch per 100 yards.
A circle has 360 Degrees. Each Degree is divided into 60 Minutes. (Each Minute is divided into 60 Seconds.)
When you fire a group of shots, you aim at an exact point at the target, but the bullets don't hit that exact point. If you're a good shot, you would put five bullet holes within one inch of your aiming point. What you're really measuring is the distance across the centers of each bullet's path. You fire five shots at 100 yards with a .308 and the widest distance between the edges of two bullet holes is 1.308". You want to know the distance between the center of each bullet hole, so you subtract .308". The centers of your five shots are 1" apart.
If you drew the whole set up on paper, there would be a point at one end of the paper where the muzzle of your gun was. 100 yards away, your five shots are 1" apart. Let's say they're spread from left to right. You draw a line from the muzzle to the shot on the right. Next, you draw a line from the muzzle to the shot on the left.
Now you have an angle. Angles can be measured in Degrees, like right angles or 45 degree angles. The angle between your right hand shot and your left hand shot measures 1/60th of one Degree. This is one Minute.
Since the lines of an angle are always moving away from each other, they will be farther apart at 200 yards than they were at 100 yards.
At 200 yards, your five shots would be 2" apart, but if you drew the lines to the muzzle, the angle would still measure 1/60th of one Degree. Minute Of Angle just happens to work out to about one inch per 100 yards.
Fly at 100 yards
Custom Benchrest Rifle capable of 1/8 MOA or better. Zaks links should answer many questions. Check out Benchest Central as well.
Custom Benchrest Rifle capable of 1/8 MOA or better. Zaks links should answer many questions. Check out Benchest Central as well.
John4me05
Member
Can someone tell me the MOA of these to try to help me get a grasp on MOA
1st target .223 at 100yds big group is 4 bullets (outside to outside top to bottom is right at 1/2") and a flier
2nd target (TOP) is the same .223 with a different handload and bullet (i was doing test loads).. 100yds again larger group is 4 shots (not sure of size off hand but its on standard rule notebook paper) with 1 flier
3rd target (TOP) is sight in of my 30-06 100yds and i am interested in the 3 shot group mainly (standard rule paper covers from 1 line to 2 lines above it top to bottom).. Once scope was properly adjusted 3 in a row in the center diamond.. Orange target is 3" tall
1st target .223 at 100yds big group is 4 bullets (outside to outside top to bottom is right at 1/2") and a flier
2nd target (TOP) is the same .223 with a different handload and bullet (i was doing test loads).. 100yds again larger group is 4 shots (not sure of size off hand but its on standard rule notebook paper) with 1 flier
3rd target (TOP) is sight in of my 30-06 100yds and i am interested in the 3 shot group mainly (standard rule paper covers from 1 line to 2 lines above it top to bottom).. Once scope was properly adjusted 3 in a row in the center diamond.. Orange target is 3" tall
The top group is a classic 4 and 1. (4in & 1out) It is not a flier, just a missed shot. Could be a number of reasons.
Second to last group looks like classic wind switch. Calm for three, slight left and away breeze on one, and slight right breeze on another.
Until you shoot over wind flags you have no idea how much a slight switch or letoff can move your point of impact. I didn't.
Shooting over wind flags with a world class rifle was a serious eye opener for me.
Minute of Angle = 1 inch group at 100 yards.
Measure your group center to center of the two bullet holes farthest apart. Subtract the caliber. Say you get .577 at 100 yards.. You just shot a sub MOA group. .577 MOA to be exact.
Lets say you get 1.364. You just shot over MOA by .364
My mistake has been called out.
Measured center to center is the group size. Measured from outside to outside minus your caliber is the group size. Sometimes I wonder where my mind is. Thanks Outlaws
Second to last group looks like classic wind switch. Calm for three, slight left and away breeze on one, and slight right breeze on another.
Until you shoot over wind flags you have no idea how much a slight switch or letoff can move your point of impact. I didn't.
Shooting over wind flags with a world class rifle was a serious eye opener for me.
Minute of Angle = 1 inch group at 100 yards.
Measure your group center to center of the two bullet holes farthest apart. Subtract the caliber. Say you get .577 at 100 yards.. You just shot a sub MOA group. .577 MOA to be exact.
Lets say you get 1.364. You just shot over MOA by .364
My mistake has been called out.
Measured center to center is the group size. Measured from outside to outside minus your caliber is the group size. Sometimes I wonder where my mind is.
Thanks OutlawsZak is, of course, right, as well as a heck of a shooter. Any one read his article about F-Class in G&A not long ago? I should not have said "to be exact" He called me on it.
Last edited:
Zak Smith
Member
Not exactly.
1 MOA = 1.0472" per 100 yards.
Outlaws
Member
No.
Center to center and you do not need to subtract anything. But if you measure the furthest two edges (more accurate as the center is not marked as there is no paper left there) you then subtract the size of the hole, which is generally smaller than the caliber.
John4me05
Member
My top target was a miscue on the shot by me.. I had held my breath too long and my heart started beating a touch harder which caused the slight shift... I called it a flier...
What are you calling the 2nd to last group.. The 2nd .223 (on paper) or the 06 on paper... If its the 06 then the 2 (1 right and even and 1 high and left) was before final scope adjustment.. I shot high left and readjusted right too far and shot even right.. Then fixed and printed the 3 shot in the middle..
These were shot by 2 rifles i have head were some of the crappiest things ever made...
The .223 is a Handi Rifle regular barrel and the 06 is a Savage 110E... People gave me hell over picking those 2 guns and about crapped when i got that kind of accuracy out of them...
What are you calling the 2nd to last group.. The 2nd .223 (on paper) or the 06 on paper... If its the 06 then the 2 (1 right and even and 1 high and left) was before final scope adjustment.. I shot high left and readjusted right too far and shot even right.. Then fixed and printed the 3 shot in the middle..
These were shot by 2 rifles i have head were some of the crappiest things ever made...
The .223 is a Handi Rifle regular barrel and the 06 is a Savage 110E... People gave me hell over picking those 2 guns and about crapped when i got that kind of accuracy out of them...
Hmmmm... What was I thinking. :banghead:
If you want to get picky.
Most folks just round it off.
OK.
In Benchrest we can't call "fliers". They all count.
I see now. I did not read it. Just saying what it looked like. Shot plenty just like it.
Lovesbeer99
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This is a good post - Look up Jim Owens at Jarheadtop.com. He is also ex military and one of the best long range competition shooters and teachers. He has a series of books that are really good and only cost a few dollars each, less than 15.00 if I remember correctly. They really helped me.
You can also try different training schools, but they are kind of expensive.
Shoot safe, I do.
Lovesbeer99
You can also try different training schools, but they are kind of expensive.
Shoot safe, I do.
Lovesbeer99
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