Please list >>problems<< with optical sights

[Oleg Volk]

I'd like to get an optic for short to mid range (under 200m) precision shooting with a flattop AR15. I've handled many red dot and conventional scopes, have misgivings about most. I am reasonably aware of the strengths of various designs but not really sure about the problems.

Could you list the bad and the ugly of the optics you've used? For example:

EOTech: brightness adjustments are slow and awkward
Compact ACOG with dot reticle: reticle too coarse

The optics I am considering are 1-3x Leupold CQ/T, S&B short dot, Aimpoint, EOTech, Valdada 3x, ACOG and compact ACOG variants.

 

[Zak Smith]

Here are my observations and they may or may not apply to others, and focussing on the downsides specifically:

* EOTech - controls and battery life not appropriate for fighting rifle
* Aimpoint 3x Magnifier - terrible field of view
* C/QT - poor field of view, disproportionately large, poor mounting solutions (no LaRue), old dot/circle reticle was poor, haven't tried new one, reticle illumination not very bright
* Compact ACOGs - bad eye relief and/or field of view and/or magnification
* TA31 ACOG - eye relief too short and "critical", hard for shooting on move, from wierd positions, etc
* TA11/TA31 ACOGs - speed liability 0-50 yards
* Short Dot - large, long eye relief, would prefer thinner reticle and mil-lines, and to ditch the 1/2 mil hash marks, battery life
* Accupoint - reticle covers distant targets with hold-over, long eye relief

Here are the best options for magnified practical optics IMO:
* Trijicon Accupoint 1.25-4
* Trijicon ACOG TA11
* S&B Short Dot

(Note an almost geometric progression in cost!)

A lot of people sell the 1x red dot short, and the best 1x red dot for a fighting rifle right now is the Aimpoint in M2, M3, or M4 versions. These can make hits to 400 yards - or as far as you can see - and have superior speed from 0-50, but have problems when target visibility is marginal.

The Accupoint and Short Dot are "almost" as effective as Aimpoint when dialed to to their lower magnification.

Outside of a fighting application, you can go a lot simpler and get something along the lines of a Leupold 1.5-5x scope with conventional crosshairs.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

The optics I am considering are

1-3x Leupold CQ/T: Oversized. Poor reticle.

S&B short dot: On the heavy side (18~ oz.)

Aimpoint: Assuming the magnified version, poor FOV.

EOTech: for a 200 yard precision optic.

Valdada 3x: Short eye relief.

ACOG: Short eye relief, not useful up close.


I think it comes down to this, if you really want to be able to have usefulness from 0-200 yards, the only real choices are the Trijicon Accupoint in 1.25-4x or the S&B Short Dot. The Accupoint has a triangle reticle which is 11moa on 1.25x and 4moa on 4x; however, you can use the tip of the triangle so that depends on your preference on what kind of precision you're after. Are you looking for surgical precision? Or just enhanced combat accuracy? What size target do you want to be able to reliably hit at 200 yards? A torso or a hand? If you're looking for a lot of precision, might want to look at the IOR 1.5-8x, this cranks down to 1.5 for faster more practical shooting, while having 8x for precision hits further out. Meopta has a 1.5-5x, but I'm not sure about illumination if that's a requirement.


None of the ones you listed are bad, they are all useful - but some have different strong suits. The S&B is really the best choice, but the most expensive. It will have the best optics, and the most versatility. Good eye relief, good reticle...the only reason it isn't discussed more is simply because it is well outside of most people's budget. The Accupoint is more of a poor man's S&B in a way, Trijicon style of course. The IOR has an interesting reticle, but I believe it and the ACOG overlap in usefulness in a lot of ways. The IOR has better optics and a price advantage as well as click adjustments (that can be either a negative or a positive depending on your outlook), the ACOG has better illumination and 1x more.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

No references for ATN?

-Steve

 

[Oleg Volk]

Other brands would certainly be considered.

My current experience includes EOTech (good optics but no magnification, slow to get brightness right), Reflex 2 (OK optics, no magnification, brightness auto-adjusts well but works best with a polarizer in brightest sunlight), mini ACOG 1.5x (fat reticle), Trijicon Tripower (awkward, did not like it though it seems great on paper). Would prefer 2-3x on the long end, 1x on the short but could deal with fixed power. Ability to take a lens shade would be good.

 

[Will Fennell]

Depends on your version of "precision"

Oleg,
I went the whole uber kewl tactical recommendation for a M4 "type" AR......and found all of the sighting recommendations laking for 'my' uses. I don't fight terrorist.....I don't raid crack houses......I don't do a lot of things that the guys that get PAID to shot uber kewl M4's do. I DO however, spend a lot of time on my 400 acre farm.....controlling varmints and predators. I do confront the occasional[at least once a year] poacher or trespasser, who is almost always armed with a long arm. I stuck with the basic M4gery type set up[went with a mid length match barrel, DD rail for the flashlight, and Magpull stock], but I settled on a simple compact variable scope, 2x7 Burris, for my optic[ I would have gone with the Trijicon Accupoint if it would have had a better reticle]. I NEED the extra precision of more power for "sniping" varmints and coyotes. I can dial it down to 2 power and a generous field of view for most of my shooting, and with QD mounts, I can easily remove it for use of my ARMS BUIS.

Nothing else I tried met the needs that I have in my environment as well as this set up. Evaluate YOUR needs and YOUR environment......you may not need what they need in the sandbox, or bustin' down doors in east LA. I you only need enough 'precision' for torso hits on badguys out to 200m.......sounds like an AIMPOINT will satisfy your needs nicely.......that would be my pick for that requirement.

 

[Soybomb]

Don't mind me, I'm just kind of tagging this for future reference myself. I'm inclined to like the eotech but reading some of the other opinions is helpful

 

[Oleg Volk]

Adding Leupold 1x14 Prismatic Riflescope to the list -- almost no info on it but it looks pretty good.

 

[taliv]

i had an aimpoint m2 on my ar15 carbine for about 6000 rounds last year. It was adequate for shooting cans at 50m. however, i didn't care much for the dot. i found that (and it could be just my eyes/astigmatism or something) but i had the same problem with the reticle as when i look at streetlights at night and get that star effect. the reticle would cast a glow that would put me off target a little bit. not much really, but it affected my confidence and i always questioned whether i was on target.

to deal with that, i had to dial the brightness down to just the right setting where it was bright enough to pick up quickly, but not so bright that it appeared oblong. the solution eventually was an acog ta31rco.

i've only got a couple thousand rounds through the acog, but i don't have any complaints about it. i will say though that the BAC thing is easier to use shooting right handed. as a lefty, there are pieces parts in the way. not completely, just not as much view

i've got the bushnell version of the eotech on a HK USC/UMP. i don't much care for the controls on it, but it's really easy to target. specifically, i'd like to be able to turn it off with one hand.

 

[ctdonath]

Adding Leupold 1x14 Prismatic Riflescope to the list

I'm rather taken with the idea, but have yet to handle one.

My application is home defense, so I want something that has zero futz-factor (no time fumbling with an on switch or illumination settings) and is usable short of outright destruction of the device - grab-and-go simple, CQB tough. So far it strikes me as ideal, if I can find out what the battery/whatever life is.

My first red-dot (something like the tiny Doktor but cheaper) failed within the first 10 rounds. This was extremely disconcerting, and has severely soured me on red-dots: batteries fail, and the sudden absence of that dot creates a horrible sinking feeling when you really want to place that next round.

In light of that, I really like the specs of the Leupold 1x14 Prismatic:
- moderately compact
- constant usable reticle, powered/illuminated or not
- strong

My doubts/questions on it include:
- size & operation of the vaguely-referenced illumination module (one review indicates use of mini Cyalume sticks instead of electrical)
- illumination time (I want: turn on, leave on, replace power every few months)
- optical behavior (does it act like I'm just looking thru a tube as with some/most red-dots, or does it seem like a scope?)

 

[trbon8r]

I've tried a few of the optics, and thought they almost all had serious issues.

Aimpoint- Even with the 2 MOA dot, I thought the accuracy was too sloppy. I could shoot better with iron sights.

Eotech- Same problem as the Aimpoint. I just had the Eotech out yesterday at the range and have decided to sell it. At 200 yards the accuracy was pitiful compared to iron sights. What good is speed if you can't hit what you are shooting at? Also, as mentioned the control setup is abysmal.

TA11F ACOG- This one I "think" I like. It is a decent combination of precision and speed in a reasonable priced optic. As mentioned though, it is a bit slower at close range than conventional iron sights. I need to shoot this one more to decide if it's a keeper.

Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5X SPR with lit reticle- I just put this scope on my M14. It seems to be a pretty nice package, but I just used it for the first time yesterday and my initial impression is that it's ok. You are giving up some speed to the red dot type optics, but you are gaining a lot in accuracy. The biggest downside is that the reticle is designed for night illumination only, so during the day you have a crosshair with an outer ring around it. I wish Leupold had made the outer ring thicker to help stand out a bit for faster close in shooting.

Regarding the S&B Short Dot- I have not used this one. I lost interest in this sight once I found out that 2 grand only gets you 100 hours of battery life. Pretty pathetic for the price they are charging.

I've come to the conclusion that the perfect optic has yet to be invented. They all have drawbacks, which make me wonder if the negatives don't outweigh the positives. If Trijicon could somehow come up with an adjustable power ACOG, they might have a real winner.

 

[Owen]

Any insights on the Zeiss sight with the solar cell? IIRC its called the Z-point.

 

[benEzra]

Don't know if you've considered this, but Axion makes a gen-2 Kobra variant that fits AR picatinny rails. The upside is, most of the advantages of an Eotech for less money, and it's Russian milspec (read: tough). You may or may not be able to cowitness the irons on a flattop AR. Choice of four reticles, and the dot is 1.8 MOA.

I have the same sight on my SAR-1 (siderail version, EKP-8-02) and like it.

Potential problems:

(1) It runs on a coin-cell battery (good from a size/weight standpoint, but battery life is only 70 hours or so if left on) and you have to remove the sight from the rail to replace the battery. The battery is a standard type (Panasonic lithium cell) but you have to mail-order it since Radio Shack doesn't stock it. Not a problem for me, but it may be for you.

(2) Adjustment markings, etc. are in Russian. Not a problem for Oleg, but may be a problem for others.

(3) I don't know if you can get the sunshade for the Gen-2 version like you can for the Gen-1 version.

Reticles (they're actually red, though they look white in these photos):

Here's the rail version, from Tantal's site:

 

[Thin Black Line]

This is an old thread --I wonder what Oleg went with....for <200 I always
gravitated back to the Reflex II with the CHEVRON. Far better than a
4 or 5 MOA blob.

 

[WinchesterAA]

EOTech with 2AA batteries -

it's a little heavy. Controls for it are fine, only awkward thing is turning it off.

 

[foob]

Nobody makes a 1-4x optic with non-caliber specific BDC do they? Or adjustable MOA size dot.

/sigh

 

[trbon8r]

Nobody makes a 1-4x optic with non-caliber specific BDC do they? Or adjustable MOA size dot.

Well yes and no, sort of. My Leupold Mark 4 is a 1.5-5X and comes with a turret set up for 62 gr. .223 ammo. I looked up the ballistics of the 62 grain .223 and compared it to a .308 147 grain FMJ, and out to 500 yards they were real close. For all practical purposes it wouldn't make any difference.

If you decide that you want a tailor made BDC, my understanding is that the Leupold custom shop will make you a custom turret for whatever your needs might be.

 

[Tokugawa]

Russian PK- AS with weaver mount? black dot with no power, red dot when the battery is switched on. 1 moa dot with 65 moa circle. From tantal.

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

What's this "tantal" that you guys mention? Contact info?

 

[Zak Smith]

There are some choices with mil-based reticles which can be used as BDCs. By definition they are not caliber specific BDCs.

The the Aimpoint/EOTech accuracy- I have used both to hit 2 MOA targets at 200 yards, and LaRue targets at 425 yards.

 

[Wes Janson]

Digging up a thread here to ask...has anyone yet had any serious experience with the Zeiss Z-Point? Zak? Any ideas on realistic battery life? Durability?

 

[Zak Smith]

Sorry, no

 

[For Freedom]

If you want precision under 200 yards just use iron sights.

I sold my Aimpoint because I felt it added weight, complexity, bulk, and was too expensive.

If you must have an optic, I suggest an Aimpoint CompM2.

 

[JWarren]

If you want precision under 200 yards just use iron sights.

I sold my Aimpoint because I felt it added weight, complexity, bulk, and was too expensive.

If you must have an optic, I suggest an Aimpoint CompM2.

On many levels I disagree.

If you are a dusk and dawn hunter, you will never question the value of magnified optics INSIDE of 200 yards-- or even inside of 100 yards.



-- John

 

[chauncey]

I like my EoTech. I consider it an advanced alternative to iron sights. It works great out to whatever range your eyes work, and great as the target gets closer to you. I don't have the magnifier for the EoTech, but I like that I can co-witness with my irons. it's also very instinctive to use, and great for fast shooting. the 1 MOA dot in the 65 moa circle works great for fast shooting and precise shooting. shots are dead on by aiming with the dot regardless of sight alignment or proper hold on the rifle. EoTech is better at under 100 yards.

Shooting buddy of mine has an Acog. I think it's a great optic and easy to use, as well. at shorter distances and faster shooting, it's a bit of a hindrance for short range shots and fast shots, as you still have to aim through the reticle. I think it's a better match for a rifle as opposed to a carbine. Acog is better at over 100 yards. co-witness is not an option.

I don't conside the Aimpoint a good option. 2-4 moa dot is not acceptable to achieve rifle accuracy, imo.

if you like irons, buy an EoTech. If you like scopes, buy an Acog. neither is a dog.