Please list >>problems<< with optical sights

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I went the whole uber kewl tactical recommendation for a M4 "type" AR......and found all of the sighting recommendations laking for 'my' uses. I don't fight terrorist.....I don't raid crack houses......I don't do a lot of things that the guys that get PAID to shot uber kewl M4's do. I DO however, spend a lot of time on my 400 acre farm.....controlling varmints and predators. I do confront the occasional[at least once a year] poacher or trespasser, who is almost always armed with a long arm. I stuck with the basic M4gery type set up[went with a mid length match barrel, DD rail for the flashlight, and Magpull stock], but I settled on a simple compact variable scope, 2x7 Burris, for my optic[ I would have gone with the Trijicon Accupoint if it would have had a better reticle]. I NEED the extra precision of more power for "sniping" varmints and coyotes. I can dial it down to 2 power and a generous field of view for most of my shooting, and with QD mounts, I can easily remove it for use of my ARMS BUIS.

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This man speaks wisely; +1. One of the better choices are the 1.5-6x40 or 1.5-6x42mm offerings from Swarovski or Zeiss - you may as well have a large objective and not waste all that space down to the rifle, as high as AR optics have to be. Big field of view also. Dialed down to 1.5, it covers close in very well.

http://www.swfa.com/c-1041-swarovski-illuminated-pvi-2-riflescopes.aspx

http://www.swfa.com/pc-8863-310-new-zeiss-15-6x42-victory-diavari-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx

Those two are the illuminated versions of those scopes, but I think they come unilluminated as well. Of course the illuminated ones work with or without use of the illuminator.

These are large, but if you don't mind the size/weight, they're the pig's feces in an all purpose scope. IMO.

Having said that, the Accupoint 1.25-4x24mm is a kick butt scope - incredible eye relief and optical quality. It also works without batteries. The new Leupold prismatic will also still work if the batteries fail, due to the etched glas reticle. On a tight budget, you could even run with the Millett DMS-1.

 

[kimberfan]

go to cheaper then dirt and get a Aimpoint CompC3 2x 1MOA dot for $330 like i did for my M1A.

 

[For Freedom]

On many levels I disagree.

If you are a dusk and dawn hunter, you will never question the value of magnified optics INSIDE of 200 yards-- or even inside of 100 yards.



-- John

Why?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

A common theme I see with the Accupoint is dissatisfaction with the reticle; however, Larue Tactical is offering a 1-4x Accupoint with the European crosshair reticle and a trititum/fiber optic illuminated center dot for $779 (with Larue QD mount).

Unfortunately, I have not been able to use one yet; but that seems like a lot of capability for the price to me. I think it is definitely worth looking at for a good general purpose AR optic and I am curious if Zak has seen or used it.

On the ones I have used:

1-3x Leupold CQ/T

- at 3x, it has a tiny eye pupil and short eye relief. Haven't tried one in a while; but the older orangish illumination wasn't practical in daylight IMO because it blends into tan/orange backgrounds (i.e. berms). Still like it better than the Leupold Prismatic though.

S&B short dot

- short battery life, price, no reason to ever use 2x or 3x.

Aimpoint, EOTech

I don't trust the Eotech sturdiness-wise and the control layout is bad. I like the Aimpoint a lot; but the 4MOA dot is coarse for some shooting. They are both electronic sights and sometimes do fail though, so you have to be comfortable with the various backup drills for when the sights fail.

ACOG and compact ACOG variants.

I'll just talk trash about my favorite ACOG variants:

TA31 - short eye relief and smaller exit pupil make it slower in close. Shooting on the move more difficult as is shooting from odd positions (on your back for example).

TA33 - small field of view, though some argue that this is a benefit to using BAC quickly up close. Otherwise, this is basically a TA11 on a diet.

TA11 - a decent amount of weight/size for a 3.5x scope. Better than the TA31 at moving/weird positions; but still slower up close than red dots. The timed tests I have run show it still beats irons for most shooters though (in terms of speed and accuracy).

An occasional problem I will have in classes is that with the 3.5x mag and 5 degree field of view, I will sometimes "bounce" the scope over to another nearby target while shooting during moving. Since brown IDPA targets look remarkably alike, I then proceed to wail the wrong target since it isn't readily apparent you have shifted targets unless you pick up on the shift through your weak-eye view. Mostly a gun-game problem though and not one with much real world application.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Anyone use the Nightforce 1-4x24 NXS?

 

[JWarren]

For Freedom wrote:

Quote:
On many levels I disagree.

If you are a dusk and dawn hunter, you will never question the value of magnified optics INSIDE of 200 yards-- or even inside of 100 yards.



-- John

Why?

Because dusk and dark hunting is low-light conditions. With quality glass in a magnified optic, you have MUCH better ability to discern details about your target. You will be able to see the target better, and are less likely to let background clutter distort your perception.

In short, you will make better, more responsible, and quite possibly more ethical shots.

Many states-- such as mine-- have mininum points requirements on deer hunting. I've known more than one hunter that made a mistake on counting horns because of background clutter.

This past season, I got a very good lesson on the value of QUALITY glass over cheaper glass or the naked eye on one day.

I was using an 8X PSOP on a Saiga 308. The stand I was in had a maximum shot of approximately 500 yards. This stand has good light around it. I watched some deer come out at about 200 yards about 20 minutes before dark. I could not make out any details about the deer with my naked eye. Through the PSOP, I was able to discern that they were does and watched them for a bit. However, it was rather dark, and I knew that I'd be coming down soon.

My father was using a cheap Simmons 3-9x50 on his 30-06 on the same day. I heard him drive out of the area where his stand was before I was through watching the does. He had to come down because he was no longer able to effectively see any targets where he was hunting. Granted, there is less light where he was, but not that much.

However, this is what got my attention. Since he had gotten down, I decided that I was basically done as well, and came out of my stand. I called Dad on his cell and he asked if I thought he should go pick up my mother yet. I said sure.... After all, Dad couldn't see any more, and I was very close to not being able to see in a bright stand. So he went to pick her up.

In one of our deepest wooded stands, my mother was still in her stand. When Dad got there, she was upset that he came to get her so early and stated that she could see fine. The difference between her and us? I had just put a fairly inexpensive Nikon Prostaff 3-9x40 on her Remington 700.


Lesson learned. If you are a dusk and dawn hunter, there is no substitute for bright, quality optics. As we speak, I have a Leupold Mark 4 enroute for my rifle.


-- John

 

[taliv]

i'm not sure what you're saying, jwarren. in my experience, i've had to dial DOWN the magnification as light wanes.

 

[JWarren]

Bartholomew Roberts wrote:

A common theme I see with the Accupoint is dissatisfaction with the reticle; however, Larue Tactical is offering a 1-4x Accupoint with the European crosshair reticle and a trititum/fiber optic illuminated center dot for $779 (with Larue QD mount).

I spoke to a representative of Trijicon yesterday on AR15.com and got some interesting news regarding the Accupoint recticle.

It seems a BDC recticle similiar to the ACOG is in development at Trijicon. He said that it WILL go into production. The bad news is that they do not have a timeframe.

I WILL get the BDC Accupoint, but I may have to get the red triangle one in the interim. As I figure it, when the BDC one comes out, I can always put the red triangle one on my Ruger 10/22. I suspect that it would do great on it.


-- John

 

[JWarren]

taliv wrote:

i'm not sure what you're saying, jwarren. in my experience, i've had to dial DOWN the magnification as light wanes.

taliv....

sure, the more magnification you get the less light you transmit. However, it is about balance. On a 100-ish yard shot where you have to discern details, I promise you that you will have a more accurate picture of your target if you use a bit of magnification over iron sights or 1X magnification.

I've been there too many times. You can see for yourself easily. Take something out that you have to discern details or count items. Make sure that the item covers no more than about 1.5 feet square and the details to discern are no larger than about 1 inch.

Have it set out at 100 yards about 15 minutes before dark, and play around with it with varible optics, 1X optics and naked eyes.

You will see what I am talking about.

-- John

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Anyone use the Nightforce 1-4x24 NXS?

Got to play with a real early version with the FC-2 reticle about six months or more before they were released into the general retail market. Nice scope and everything you would expect for a scope of that price.

I didn't have any problems using the scope in daylight; but have read many complaints about the production version not having bright enough illumination for daylight use.

My use was on a nice sunny Spring day in Texas, so I'm not sure what to make of the other comments.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Thank you for the input, Mr. Roberts.

 

[res45]

Millett 1-4X24 DESIGNATED MARKSMAN SCOPE
http://www.millettsights.com/controller.php/catalog/tactical_dms

http://www.swfa.com/pc-10714-1395-millett-1-4x24-dms-tactical-30mm-riflescope.aspx

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Does anyone have a link to a picture of exactly what a "German Crosshair # TR21-3" reticle looks like? Is this something akin to a German #4?

FWIW, I love the post reticle on the Accupoint, with the illuminated point and think it's as good as a crosshair (though not necessarily better).

 

[Shadowangel]

I don't conside the Aimpoint a good option. 2-4 moa dot is not acceptable to achieve rifle accuracy, imo.

So you consider a 1moa Eotech dot acceptable for accuracy, but not a 2moa aimpoint dot? I'm sorry, but at the distances where you're primarily going to be using an Aimpoint or an Eotech, a 1moa dot size difference is negligible. It's not going to make any discernable difference. I looked at getting an Eotech, and I like them...but my CompML3 gets 50,000 hours of life off one battery. Eotechs get nowhere near that. I really like knowing that I can leave it turned on for a couple of years, then pick it up and still have that dot glowing.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I have a Kobra EKP-1S-03M (new AA version) on my AK. Mine has the side mount plate. My brother has the Picitanny rail version that takes the watch batteries. They seem like an excellent value for the money and in my experience share the same ruggedness that the Russians are famous for. However, the optic sits rather tall, the adjustments are in Russian and therefore difficult for those of us who only know English, and the watch batteries on the Picitanny rail version aren't as common in my area claimed in the manual. Also, I am not sure if the battery life can compete with some Western optics.

I only have limited experience with EOTechs and Aimpoints. But I was issued a 4x ACOG (RCO) as an 0311 and have very little bad to say about the optic. It is bombproof durable--even Marines have trouble breaking them--and it simply works. The rangefinding/BDC system is quick, simple, and effective. It really does increase hit probability at all ranges and light conditions. About the only complaints I have for it are these; eye relief on the RCO is short enough that the ocular lens can thump you on the eyebrow from awkward shooting positions, and this can be distracting even with the low recoil of the M16, and the fiber optics are so effective so that chevron can flare out in brighter conditions. We made makeshift covers that controlled how much of the fiber optics were exposed in order to control the brightness of the reticle. Overall, I can highly recommend the optic, though I'd probably be willing to give up .5x magnification and the horizontal mil line of the RCO to gain an inch or so of eye relief from the 3.5x ACOG.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Does anyone have a link to a picture of exactly what a "German Crosshair # TR21-3" reticle looks like?

If you click on the slideshow presentation at that link, it shows a reticle picture. It is essentially a thick-post crosshair with thin center crosshairs and a tiny illuminated dot in the center.