Plunking a .223

[Skulptor]

I want to build an accurate round for my Tavor. I'm trying to plunk it for the best OAL but not having much luck. I've done this before but only on my .9mm and .40 cal. handguns, (with great success in the accuracy dept.).
I tumbled, trimmed and deburred a few cases and set the bullets in long, 2.360, to start from. I also "painted" the bullets with a Sharpie so as to be able to see the lands marks. I dropped the round in, easily let the slide slide forward a couple times and them let it slam forward from about half way so it would grab and eject the round.
Not only did the bullet not move into the case but I can not see any land marks. What gives?? How can that be?? Is it possible a Tavor is set up different in that regards, than a AR-15?
I'm hoping to reload an accurate round for my Tavor, as I have for my hand guns since I shoot competitively (it does make a difference, I'm happy to say) but it seems an accurate round by plunking for the best OAL isn't going to be in the cards. (??????)
Anyone have any other ideas? Has anyone else come across this?

 

[243winxb]

Trying to reach the rifling in factory chambered guns may not work well. Start with the bullets base at the case's neck/shoulder junction, if possible. The round must fit the magazine and the OAL SHOULD not be to long, keeping the round from chambering.

 

[ants]

We generally don't 'plunk' a bottleneck rifle cartridge the same way as a straightwall pistol cartridge.

There are many other methods and tools for determining max OAL in a bottleneck rifle round. A bunch of search online will be fruitful for you.

But getting the shoulder in the right spot is just as critical for reliable cycling and accuracy.

As mentioned above, magazine length is often the limitation on OAL.

 

[Reloadron]

Anyone have any other ideas? Has anyone else come across this?

No, but I don't own a Tavor Rifle. However, if I did own a Tavor I would not start an accuracy quest by chasing the lands. I would start the same way I load for my AR 15 rifles. Have you looked at your barrel twist rate? For example if your Tavor has a 1:7 twist rate you may want to look towards a heavier bullet like 69 to 70 grains with a suitable powder and load to a suggested COL by the bullet maker that fits the magazine. Once you start getting good, repeatable, tight groups then I would start chasing the lands. I would just start with a real good accurate load first and look to improve the groups later.

Just My Take....
Ron

 

[Demi-human]

I have no Tavor, but would like to shoot one sometime. It could be they have taken a page from Weatherby's book. A very long leade will help to subdue pressure. As long as it is a tight fit to bullet diameter, accuracy will not be affected negatively. I too prefer a bullet close to the lands, but a great loading can be found elsewhere. In a seating depth test done on my target rifle a change in depth had little effect on group size. Indeed, the two best setttings had the exact same size and shape, when laid one upon the other. One printing slightly lower on the target than the other.

Consider this a boon. You now have one less thing to worry about.
I wish you many wins.

 

[RecoilRob]

From what I've read and seen on the Tavor...you might be disappointed in your attempts to make a really accurate load for it. Several people have run comparison tests against good AR's and the Tavor came out far behind in accuracy which could very well be in the basic design and build as it was never intended for long range accuracy. It sure won't hurt to try to see if you can load up something that will improve the grouping, just don't get your hopes up to equal an AR as it's not likely in the cards.

Oh...and in a 5.56 NATO chamber it's going to be nigh on impossible to get anywhere near the lands with ammo that will also fit in the magazine. Very likely the chamber is going to be on the big side too...anticipating dirt and battlefield neglect to keep it reliable. Will be fun to play with it...so good luck!

 

[Skulptor]

You guys are awesome. Thank you very much. I will keep on researching and testing, using your suggestions.
I do love running this gun. There are several benefits for it in competition but we all tend to like what we know. And the mag changing is lighting quick when you get the hang of it. I just hope an accurate load can be found.
Any other suggestions GREATLY appreciated!!!!!!!!!
Thanks.

 

[redbullitt]

I would load them mag length minus a touch to account for dirt and tolerances etc. It will shoot plenty accurate using this method I am sure.

If you cannot find an accurate load (within reason for what the gun is) then there may be an issue.

Try some 77 match kings or similar bullets if your twist is a fast one like 1/7. If you have a 1/9 try some 69 match kings or lighter.
For powder I think Varget will be worth a look, TAC, CFE223 as well. All of my 223/556 rifles burn varget just fine. Never had to try much else honestly.

 

[Paddy]

They are pretty accurate guns actually. As accurate as a match ar? No but who cares. Rifle accuracy in a competition is only one small factor in the score. I used my friends in a comp once and did very well with just regular 55gr ugly ammo. Hard part was figuring out how to show range officer the chamber was clear.

Pretty sure if you seat near the lands that you won't be able to fit Them in the magazine. So, that will not be a useful endeavor.

 

[Hondo 60]

Reloadron in post 4 above has the steps I would use as well.

I also believe your magazine is going to be the limiting factor.

Good luck! You may need a lot of range time to get the right powder/powder charge/bullet combination.
Darn! eh?

PS: I think I'd try really hard to keep the same primer for all tests.
Changing primers during tests might defeat the purpose.

 

[Skulptor]

Thanks again gents. I'll start "at the other end".
BTW, it is a 1:7 twist. I'll go with heavier bullets when I shoot these up.
Great info!! Thanks you!!

 

[Demi-human]

What range are you shooting? If not six hundred yards than the seventy fives and up are just more money spent. If you are not spinning a light bullet to disintegration, a heavier bullet won't necessarily be more accurate at short range. But it never hurts to try.

 

[Skulptor]

100 yards max for competition.
I guess, from what expressed, I may not be able to gain a "great deal" from building the most accurate round I can but, I would like to be able to know that it is me that is the weak link and not my gear or ammo. And altho I'm not a "competitive person", per se, I do like to do well.
I found the absolute MAX oal is 2.240'', for my mags. So I will start there and start building some. I have 8# of H335 powder to start with and may try others down the road. I typically start on the low end of the powder measure and work up. I never :"exceed" the max in the books, as I am not that versed in it. I will get some heavier bullets to see if they make a difference as well. The Indy 1500 gun show is next weekend.
Next thing is to try and find a good 100 yd. scope..........without breaking the bank. Suggestions?????
Thanks Gents!!!

 

[RecoilRob]

That all depends on how sturdy your bank is. My preference on a rifle such as yours would be an illuminated low power variable....such as: http://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-mtac-1-5-6x-40mm-riflescope-w-ballistic-plex-cq-7-62-reticle.html You can spend a LOT more, or less....so shop around. I don't have this exact scope, but do use an old Swift 1.5x6 on my 375 H&H #1 and it really works well. Both eyes open up close the 1.5x doesn't mess with the mind and actually just seems to sharpen the image a little, so it's fast and easy to hit with it. An illuminated reticle would perform about the same as a red-dot in this type of use I'd imagine.

Then...at distance, you can crank up the magnification and be a lot more precise along with better target ID so long as the slight change in eye relief will work with your shooting position. There are true 1x variables on the market but for some reason they seem to be priced a LOT higher then the 1.5's.

If you're unsure of whether this concept will work for you, maybe get an inexpensive version to try? They can be had for low-mid $200's and would certainly work well enough for you to give one a run and see if you like it. Then...if you feel this is how you want to go...get the best you can afford.

Oh...on the ammo loading: my rifles all seem to work best with H-335 at the higher end of charge weights...they just keep shooting tighter and tighter as they get faster. The Varminter will throw 10 shots inside .4" with 52 grain bullets over 26 grains of H-335 which isn't too shabby. More important than charge weight is bullet concentricity!! If you're concerned with accuracy, being sure the bullet is seated with minimal runout is critical. And...then double-check after chambering that they're not being deformed in the feeding cycle as this will defeat all of your careful loading. The best bullet performance might be from the one that gets into the chamber the straightest so do experiment with crimping to see if it helps in this regard. Not sure on the Tavor how hard the feed geometry will be on the ammo so it's something to play with in the search for accuracy.

 

[Bart B.]

Start with the bullets base at the case's neck/shoulder junction, if possible.

This often causes semiautos to jam with lighter weight bullets. Especially when they're designed to be reliable with rounds about 1/16" shorter than magazine length. The first arsenal ammo for M16's used 50 grain bullets whose heel was almost 3/32" forward of the case shoulder. So were such bullets in 222 Rem benchrest ammo.

If rounds 1/16" shorter than magazine length aren't accurate, their length ain't the problem.

How does commercial ammo shoot?

 

[Skulptor]

Good stuff guys. Thanks Bart.
Commercial shoots OK. Certainly could be better and why I was trying to find a good round/recipe. It may be such a thing as there won't be much difference but, I figure if I am going to spend the time reloading, I want to do my due diligence and load the best round I can create.
Thanks again!!

 

[Varminterror]

Isn't the Tavor polygonal bore rifled? If so, then a sharpie won't be the best tool for "smoking" bullets. You'll need to actually smoke the bullets, and then will see a faint ring around the bullet - you will NOT see traditional rifling cuts. Sharpie ink somewhat absorbs into the surface of the bullet, so unless you make a significant scratch, it doesn't serve as a good witness fluid. Gotta go smoke. I run a lot of poly bore rifled barrels, fell into the same trap years ago when I started using them - markers don't work, gotta go back to old school methods.

 

[Skulptor]

Hey, THANKS!! I was not aware. I'll try that!!
I appreciate the help.

 

[Sunray]

Chasing the lands(distance off the lands) is done after you have worked up the load and even then is not absolutely necessary. It's a load tweaking technique only. Moreso in something like a Tavor. Tavor's not being target rifles. Just use the Max OAL given in your manual and you'll be fine. You can fiddle with the distance off the lands later, if you feel like doing so.