POA/POI question
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jsconnelly
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Not enough to make a difference in a defense situation but for the sake of argument, there are several factors to consider:
Caliber
Barrel length
Bullet weight
Velocity
Distance between the bore axis and sights
Just off the top of my head.
Caliber
Barrel length
Bullet weight
Velocity
Distance between the bore axis and sights
Just off the top of my head.
Any human being who can fire a pistol so precisely as to be able to discern that small of a POA/POI difference, need not be concerned.
For CCW, one should be using "point shooting", not "precision shooting". In our defensive shooting classes, we actually tape over our front and rear sights. We aim via pointing the slide (superimpose it over the target).
For CCW, one should be using "point shooting", not "precision shooting". In our defensive shooting classes, we actually tape over our front and rear sights. We aim via pointing the slide (superimpose it over the target).
jsconnelly
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I'd also add that it's advisable to try various rounds in your defense weapon. My Taurus PT-111 throws 115 gr bullets about 15 inches lower that POA at 25 yards. 124 gr are very close.
Phil DeGraves
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"For CCW, one should be using "point shooting", not "precision shooting". "
Respectfully, I absolutely disagree. Sights are absolutely necessary when betting your life on your being able to hit the other guy WHERE YOU WANT TO HIT HIM.
And contrary to popular belief, it isn't any slower if you practice.
"We aim via pointing the slide (superimpose it over the target)."
which will often result in low hits unless practiced since you have no vertical reference of barrel to target.
Respectfully, I absolutely disagree. Sights are absolutely necessary when betting your life on your being able to hit the other guy WHERE YOU WANT TO HIT HIM.
And contrary to popular belief, it isn't any slower if you practice.
"We aim via pointing the slide (superimpose it over the target)."
which will often result in low hits unless practiced since you have no vertical reference of barrel to target.
Yosemite**Sam
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Not sure I agree with you here Phil. I do a fair amount of point shooting and I don't use my sights. However I do see my sights in some relation to the target. Also there is the question here of hip shooting, again a basic form of point shooting with no sight usage at all. Again with respect to you I must disagree.
I dunno how to quote in resposne to Phil, but i read somewhere that they teach you retention shooting (under the arm) in a very clutch situation so the BG couldn't reach out and grab the gun -rendering sighting the gun impossible.
sights are important but i wouldn't rule out the fact that there will be some situation where you'd just have to trust experience and gut feeling.
sights are important but i wouldn't rule out the fact that there will be some situation where you'd just have to trust experience and gut feeling.
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Phil DeGraves
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"I dunno how to quote in resposne to Phil, but i read somewhere that they teach you retention shooting (under the arm) in a very clutch situation so the BG couldn't reach out and grab the gun -rendering sighting the gun impossible."
Well, certainly, at arm's length, you might have to shoot someone off your gun to retain it. No dispute there. My comment was a response to Doc's "You should be using point shooting" to defend yourself.
Sam said "I do a fair amount of point shooting and I don't use my sights."
I'm not saying that point shooting doesn't work. People that practice it regularly can get to be good at it. But I shoot better when I use my sights and it isn't any slower. Since I get better hits with sighted fire (and since gunfight stats show a disproportionate number of misses even at three yards when people don't use their sights), if my life is on the line, you can be darn sure I'll be using my sights if I can.
So a blanket statement like "For CCW, one should be using "point shooting" offends me. If he had said "For CCW, one should try using "point shooting", to see if you can get quick hits" I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it works for you, great. It doesn't work for me as well as sighted fire does.
Well, certainly, at arm's length, you might have to shoot someone off your gun to retain it. No dispute there. My comment was a response to Doc's "You should be using point shooting" to defend yourself.
Sam said "I do a fair amount of point shooting and I don't use my sights."
I'm not saying that point shooting doesn't work. People that practice it regularly can get to be good at it. But I shoot better when I use my sights and it isn't any slower. Since I get better hits with sighted fire (and since gunfight stats show a disproportionate number of misses even at three yards when people don't use their sights), if my life is on the line, you can be darn sure I'll be using my sights if I can.
So a blanket statement like "For CCW, one should be using "point shooting" offends me. If he had said "For CCW, one should try using "point shooting", to see if you can get quick hits" I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it works for you, great. It doesn't work for me as well as sighted fire does.
In nearly all of the Tactical Shooting and Advanced Tactical shooting courses that I have completed (about 10 of them), we have been required to place tape over our front and rear sights. We had to shoot in full-light, low-light and no-light situations...no sights.
Edit to add: As an example, we executed a few dozen commands of draw & fire. Then, we did a few dozen commands of draw & double-tap. Then we did about 6 commands of draw & triple-tap. Then we did about 6 commands of draw & empty the magazine (most of us carried 17 round Glocks). For the next 30 minutes we drew and fired on command...whatever the instructor called. (Single! ... Triple! ... Double!). How do you acquire the sights? In low light even? We closed the session with shooting on the move, in pairs, and firing to command. Again, how to acquire the sights? Nope.
In a defensive shoot, not only will most people not have time to acquire the sights, nearly all people (even LEOs) experience tunnel vision. They do not see their sights, and only gross motor skills remain. Don't take my word for it. There are "dozens of dozens" of experts here at THR who know far more than I.
A parting question: have you ever fired a Colt the New Agent? It has no sights. They are darned accurate too.
Edit to add: As an example, we executed a few dozen commands of draw & fire. Then, we did a few dozen commands of draw & double-tap. Then we did about 6 commands of draw & triple-tap. Then we did about 6 commands of draw & empty the magazine (most of us carried 17 round Glocks). For the next 30 minutes we drew and fired on command...whatever the instructor called. (Single! ... Triple! ... Double!). How do you acquire the sights? In low light even? We closed the session with shooting on the move, in pairs, and firing to command. Again, how to acquire the sights? Nope.
In a defensive shoot, not only will most people not have time to acquire the sights, nearly all people (even LEOs) experience tunnel vision. They do not see their sights, and only gross motor skills remain. Don't take my word for it. There are "dozens of dozens" of experts here at THR who know far more than I.
A parting question: have you ever fired a Colt the New Agent? It has no sights. They are darned accurate too.
mavracer said:
That's okay. I respectfully accept the differing opinion. Personally, I am extremely thankful for my instructors' willingness to have us practice as close to real life as possible. I did not agree with everything they said, but I respect their opinions all the same.
Regarding B27s, etc, I guess some do. We had accuracy requirements. Most shootists maintained in the range of 4 to 6 inches at 7 yards when firing as fast as possible. Some of us shot better because we practice frequently...as in jagged cluster of 17 rounds. We also practiced shooting "point-blank-range. Ever see that in the range? As in bad guy jumps you? The instructor's opinion was we needed to know how the muzzle blast would feel so we would not panic.
If one practices, one can develop exceptional accuracy even in doube and triple tap mode. There are several people who frequent THR who have shot with me.
Oh, I forgot to add. We also took our 33 round magazines at the instructor's request. That is when the fun began.
That's okay. I respectfully accept the differing opinion. Personally, I am extremely thankful for my instructors' willingness to have us practice as close to real life as possible. I did not agree with everything they said, but I respect their opinions all the same.
Regarding B27s, etc, I guess some do. We had accuracy requirements. Most shootists maintained in the range of 4 to 6 inches at 7 yards when firing as fast as possible. Some of us shot better because we practice frequently...as in jagged cluster of 17 rounds. We also practiced shooting "point-blank-range. Ever see that in the range? As in bad guy jumps you? The instructor's opinion was we needed to know how the muzzle blast would feel so we would not panic.
If one practices, one can develop exceptional accuracy even in doube and triple tap mode. There are several people who frequent THR who have shot with me.
Oh, I forgot to add. We also took our 33 round magazines at the instructor's request. That is when the fun began.
Thanks everyone for your responses... I really asked the question more for target reasons than tactical ones, since I do mostly slow-fire on targets. Besides practicing my technique, think I'm going to try some different brands of ammo and different loads to see if I notice any differences. I've shot the same pistol, but different specimen (although a well broken in demo one) with different ammo and got slightly different results. All good info though.
I've been there a number of times and I can confirm the tunnel-vision experience, although it lessened with each subsequent encounter. Never had a problem with the finer motor-skills (nor in remembering things like the safety-catch, which had always been my greatest worry).Doc2005 said:
Picking up the sights weren't a problem either - and although I was definitely threat-focused (natural human instinct/reaction to focus on the threat itself), the front sight was on-target. Contrary to the proper bullseye-shooting technique, I grew up shooting and competing while focused on the target itself, so I've never felt disadvantaged in that respect; I'm just used to having a fuzzy front sight.
I think it comes down to how realistically you train (well, as realistically as anyone can in practice) and how well you can keep your head.
Hi,
Most gun fights are within six feet. This is "yank and crank" range. However . . .
I prefer my self defense handguns to be dead on at 10 yards, for this is a longer distance that might be needed at a convenience store, restaurant attack, etc.
Plus, you HAVE to also know where to aim to do the same at 25 yds.
WHO SAID YA CAN'T SHOOT TIGHT GROUPS WITH A SNUBBIE?!!! . . .
Here's my tiny little Model 36 5-shot .38 snub, shot from the standing and unsupported stance. Why a snubbie? Because THAT'S the gun you 'll probably have on you when the SHTF:
At ten yards, into a 1" black square target . . .
At twenty five yards, into a 2 1/2" black square target . . .
BTW, at 25 yards, I was aiming at the UPPER target, and the bullet dropped into the lower one, just as I planned.
Ya gotta know your bullet drop!!!
T.
Most gun fights are within six feet. This is "yank and crank" range. However . . .
I prefer my self defense handguns to be dead on at 10 yards, for this is a longer distance that might be needed at a convenience store, restaurant attack, etc.
Plus, you HAVE to also know where to aim to do the same at 25 yds.
WHO SAID YA CAN'T SHOOT TIGHT GROUPS WITH A SNUBBIE?!!! . . .
Here's my tiny little Model 36 5-shot .38 snub, shot from the standing and unsupported stance. Why a snubbie? Because THAT'S the gun you 'll probably have on you when the SHTF:
At ten yards, into a 1" black square target . . .
At twenty five yards, into a 2 1/2" black square target . . .
BTW, at 25 yards, I was aiming at the UPPER target, and the bullet dropped into the lower one, just as I planned.
Ya gotta know your bullet drop!!!
T.
I think I strayed the focus of the tread a bit. Phil DeGraves
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"...and how well you can keep your head."
This is more important than point shooting, sighted firer or any of the rest of it.
By the way, S&W fan, that is a nice old flat latch J-frame you've got there.
This is more important than point shooting, sighted firer or any of the rest of it.
By the way, S&W fan, that is a nice old flat latch J-frame you've got there.
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