Pocket 9mm substitute for .38 snubby?

[Dollar An Hour]

I currently carry a S&W 442, but I'm considering a 9mm subcompact for carry duty as well. I live in a warm year-round climate, shorts and T-shirts are the norm, so pocket carry beats IWB for my needs.

My reasons for looking at a 9mm are as follows:

1) I like the ballistics of 9mm +P out of a 3" barrel versus a .38 +P out of a 1-7/8" barrel, and having a couple more rounds before reload.

2) I think a compact semiauto is easier to shoot more accurately, and quicker, than a snubby revolver.

I'm leaning toward a Kahr PM9. The Glock 26 & XD subcompact are too fat for pocket carry. What about the Kel Tec P11? Too big for pocket carry?

Anything else I should consider? P3AT is down on power, but the size is great for pocket carry.

 

[Black Majik]

I think the PM9 would be a great pocket carry pistol. But also check out the Rohrbaugh R9. Smaller, lighter, more expensive, but very good quality from what I hear. And a "true" pocket pistol

 

[dmallind]

Both fine choices. You do lose the ability (at least officially) to use +P in the Rohrbaugh though. Not sure if that's real world or just maker CYOA rule but if I had spent $900 and waited a while to get a pocket 9mm I wouldn't risk mine finding out.

I have the PM9 so you know where my bias is. It fits in pants pockets well and in a good holster (www.kdholsters.com for mine) looks just like a wallet when seated - disappears when standing up. I suppose it may bulge more in 80s style stretch jeans but as a late 30's 280lb guy I wouldn't know

Lot cheaper than the Rohrbaugh. Bit bigger (mostly width). +P OK.

One other option is the KelTec brand new 9mm (NOT the PT11 - forget the model for now). It's thinner but marginally longer and higher than the Kahr, and much cheaper still. However KelTec are of lesser quality construction and, generally speaking, spotty reliability. If you are willing to tweak one of those to reliability and put up with potmetal looking slide and rough finishes etc it may be a very workmanlike option.

If $500 or so isn't out of the question for you though I'd play safe and go Kahr. Mine has been very reliable indeed and shoots reasonably accurately for me given its size and my lack of practice with DA triggers

 

[pstmstr]

pocket carry

I have a s&w 340 (replaced my 642) and a PM9. I like both, shoot the PM9 better, but carry the j frame more because it comes out of front pocket easier. I have my Kahr up for sale but may end up keeping it anyway, it is a good gun, took a while to get it broke in for 100% reliability. You really can't go wrong with either but you do need a holster that breaks up the outline of the Kahr or else it definitely prints gun while the j frame breaks up the outline a little bit.

 

[wrangler5]

The P11 is pretty fat for most pockets. The new single stack KelTec looks like a pretty nice package. KT frequently gets a knock for quality, but I think a lot of it is a funtion of feel - they are made of plastic, aluminum (the actual receiver, to which the grip and the steel operating parts attach) and steel, and don't have the same quality "feel" of a Kahr, for example. But I've had two - a P11 and a PT3-AT - and both benefitted from a few hundred rounds of break-in shooting, after which they have been dead reliable with quality ammo. In terms of value for the dollar, the KTs are hard to beat.

 

[progunner1957]

Don't forget about the H&K P7M8

Kahr P9 for concealability; also the Heckler & Koch P2000SK 9mm looks like a good choice for a pocket 9mm.

There's also the Heckler & Koch P7M8, available used, as H&K has stopped making them. Gun Broker and/or Guns America usually have a few P7's for sale on their websites. They go for $1250-1350 American, or $700-800 A. for the reconditioned German police models.

If you get a P7, get some extra magazines, if you can find them, but only mags made by H&K - all other makes are junk, from what I have heard from other P7 owners.

Take a look:
www.gunsamerica.com or www.gunbroker.com

 

[lee n. field]

(NOT the PT11 - forget the model for now)

Why not? Any particular problems with them or is it (just like another poster said) too fat?

 

[roscoe]

No - he was just saying he couldn't remember the name of the new Kel Tec model, which is, I think PF9.

 

[bigmike45]

Prior to getting my Taurus PT-145 in .45acp, I carried a Kel-Tec P-11 for a couple of years. It was a BUG to all my 1911's and was my primary office carry, around the house carry and anwhere I could not have the 1911 carry. It easily dropped into the right front pocket of almost any pants I was wearing. I kept it in an Umcle Mikes Pocket Sleve Holster.

 

[355sigfan]

In theory a small 9mm of the size you speak would be nice but none are reliable enough for me. The Kahrs have had lots of problems with their small guns. The new Rohrbaugh R9 is too new for me to trust. In general the more you shrink autos the less reliable they become. The smallest 9mm I trust is the Glock 26. But to each their own. I use a 442 when I need a pocket gun.
Pat

 

[dmallind]

No - he was just saying he couldn't remember the name of the new Kel Tec model, which is, I think PF9.

Correct - the new PF9 is much thinner than the 11, and it was the PF9 I couldn't remember.

 

[Pilot]

There's also the Heckler & Koch P7M8,

While I'm a huge fan of the HK P7 series (I own both an M8 and PSP) they are definitely NOT a pocket gun in the same size/weight range as the S&W 442 or 642.

I agree with the Kahr PM9 suggestion or looking at the new Keltec 9MM that is coming out.

 

[dmallind]

In theory a small 9mm of the size you speak would be nice but none are reliable enough for me. The Kahrs have had lots of problems with their small guns. The new Rohrbaugh R9 is too new for me to trust. In general the more you shrink autos the less reliable they become. The smallest 9mm I trust is the Glock 26. But to each their own. I use a 442 when I need a pocket gun.
Pat

I am flat out unqualified to argue with an instructor and armorer (sincere here - not sarcastic) but I have to say I have had excellent luck with my PM9. Anecdotally I think most people have too, although there are certainly reports of teething troubles from some. Most issues seem to get resolved though AFAIK. No brand of course is 100% reliable.

I certainly agree on the general idea that reliability is harder to establish in smaller packages - heck 1911s are the poster children for that for sure - but Kahr seem to have done a better job than most in the general small auto market. From what I've heard Rohrbaugh have too - but no experience there personally.

 

[jehu]

Get the Rohrbaugh, the only true pocket auto in 9mm. I've got two and both work fine. With a Hedley pocket holster they disapear in back or front pocket. No +p but very accurate to 25ft and dependable with 124gr gold dots 6+1. Take it from experiance,I have had the Kel-tec p11,all the little Colt 380's and Colt Pocket 9 9mm(very fine guns), Kahrs, Rugers, you name it, all good guns but nothing is as easy and comfortable to carry in a pocket,9mm, as the little Rohrbaugh R9.:banghead:

 

[Dollar An Hour]

Down to three...

Get the Rohrbaugh

I just can't spend $900 on this pistol.

I think I've narrowed it to 3 choices:

1) Kahr PM9 - Thin profile makes it pocketable, DAO trigger good for SD situations. Some people claiming teething problems on polymer Kahrs.

2) Glock 26 - Too fat for pocket carry, but how about a good IWB rig? With big T-shirts of tucked out hawaiian-type shirts it'd hide well year-round.

I like the capacity and Glocks tend to be very reliable out of the box.

3) Kel Tec P3AT - Only a .380, but by far the most concealable. Great for pocket carry. Most likely to need work out of the box or a trip back to KT.

Half the cost of a Kahr or G26.

Maybe IWB carry is just a habit to adapt to. Seems like more work than pocket carry, but a better place to keep your gun as well. With nearly year-round shorts & T-shirt weather here, is IWB still a good option?

 

[dmallind]

If you can hide the Glock and carry it comfortably it's going to be by far the best option. Very reliable, more capacity, more velocity, more accurate in most people's hands, same price or slightly less than Kahr.

Only other issue based on your snubby experience and post above is bear in mind the Glock trigger is lighter and shorter in pull than the Kahr, which is itself shorter and lighter than most revolvers IMO. AD/ND no problem as long as you have a holster that covers the guard and keep your darned finger outta there, but may need some adjustment in use for a "real" DA trigger afficianado (technically speaking Glocks are more akin to DA than not, but they feel way different).

In other words try before you buy!

 

[Marshall]

Pocket 9mm.............

 

[albanian]

There is no substitute for a good snubby. Until they can make a pocket 9mm as reliable as a good snubby, there really isn't anything better on the market. Also, the snubby can be fired from inside the pocket, autos can't do this. It may seem like a minor point until you have been in a situation where it was good to have your finger on the trigger of your snubby inside your pocket and had it pointed at the guy that was about to start something.

Lets face it, we don't live in the wild west. Actually drawing a gun on someone is a very serious thing to do. You will not do it until it is too late sometimes because you don't want to get into trouble if you were mistaken. I feel much better knowing that I have the guy covered and if events spin out of control fast, all I have to do is pull the trigger. Hopefully, he will never know what hit him. I am not one to pull my gun out so I like that feature about the snubby. I carry a S&W 642 and one time, I was really glad I had it above any other gun. It may be be the best gun on paper but in some situations, it is the very best gun you can have. Life isn't like the movies and pulling a gun doesn't come easy to us non-LEOS.

Most of the muggers I have heard about have a certain M.O. It is something like they ask you for a smoke or a dollar and when you give it to them, or not, they try and surprise you with a gun or a knife and rob you or kill you. Guess who is going to be surprised in that situation when I have my finger on the trigger of my snubby? It doesn't look out of place to have your hand in your coat pocket either. If I am anywhere where I feel uneasy, my hand is already in my cost pocket so I don't even have to make a move to put it there.

The small 9mm auto is tempting but the ones I have seen were not reliable enough to trust with my life. About as small as I would go is the Kahr K-9. The plastic Kahrs just don't seem as well made or reliable to me. My P-9 had some problems that made me decide it was never going to be good enough for self defense.

 

[Dollar An Hour]

Albanian - It's rare that I'm wearing a coat in sunny AZ. And firing my 442 from the pocket of my denim shorts, inside my Kramer, isn't gonna happen.

But, if wearing a jacket, the revolver is nice. I see your point.

 

[355sigfan]

I am flat out unqualified to argue with an instructor and armorer (sincere here - not sarcastic) but I have to say I have had excellent luck with my PM9. Anecdotally I think most people have too, although there are certainly reports of teething troubles from some. Most issues seem to get resolved though AFAIK. No brand of course is 100% reliable.

I certainly agree on the general idea that reliability is harder to establish in smaller packages - heck 1911s are the poster children for that for sure - but Kahr seem to have done a better job than most in the general small auto market. From what I've heard Rohrbaugh have too - but no experience there personally.

My opinion of Kahrs is not based on my experience as an Instructor or Armorer. I did some research on them because I was considering buying one when I was a narc as a uc gun. I saw a suprising number of bad reports on forums like this talking about reliability problems with the sub compacts (micros) I have not shot one so my opinion is based strictly on internet research.

But I am leary of trying something despite a lot of bad reports because I have been burned in the past. For example I tried one of those NAA guardians when the first came out. It went back to the factory twice and never made it through one magazine without a malfunction. I tried the Beretta Tomcat. It would consistenly malfunction about 2 or 3 times per 100. I had a Springfiled V10 compact (officers size) it too was un-reliable. In general I have seen more malfunctions with semi autos that are extreemly small. Personally I feel that small airweight revolvers are the best bet for the pocket carry gun class.
Pat

 

[Jeff Timm]

I'm big enough to carry a Kahr P9094 in a cargo pocket, long magazine on opposite side for balance. This is the mid size Kahr and has been very reliable.

The small M9093-BOX MK9, matte stainless steel frame and matte black slide $475.00 http://www.kahr.com/pistols_M9093box.html I've seen two on the range in the hands of a couple of suspected police officers. No badges showing, just the uniform T-shirts and pants on both men. They went through a LOT of ammo. A range bag full of ball 9mm, in brown boxes. I was heavily engaged with a new Walther P22 at the time, but no curses came from that end of the range, just a lot of noise.

Geoff
Who doesn't feel naked with his S&W Bodyguard, but the 9mm has 50% more power and two or three more rounds.

 

[MCgunner]

I currently carry a S&W 442, but I'm considering a 9mm subcompact for carry duty as well. I live in a warm year-round climate, shorts and T-shirts are the norm, so pocket carry beats IWB for my needs.

My reasons for looking at a 9mm are as follows:

1) I like the ballistics of 9mm +P out of a 3" barrel versus a .38 +P out of a 1-7/8" barrel, and having a couple more rounds before reload.

2) I think a compact semiauto is easier to shoot more accurately, and quicker, than a snubby revolver.

I'm leaning toward a Kahr PM9. The Glock 26 & XD subcompact are too fat for pocket carry. What about the Kel Tec P11? Too big for pocket carry?

Anything else I should consider? P3AT is down on power, but the size is great for pocket carry.

It all depends on the size of your pockets. I carry my P11 IWB. I wear jeans daily and can't pocket my P11 in 'em. The Rohrbaugh currently is the only pocket size 9 I know of and I ain't given most of a grand for a pocket gun. I carry a .380. The P3AT is a good choice, but you're losing power even on the .38 a bit.

BUT, if you can pocket a J frame, you can likely pocket a P11 Kel Tec. I can't pocket my J frame guns in jeans either. They P11 is more compact than even my 2" Taurus M85UL. The new single stack Kel Tec promises to be a little thinner, a little lighter, for the price of a few rounds. You can get a 12 round flush mount magazine for the P11, gives you 13 on tap. I still carry the 10 rounders with mine, though. Weight wise, you're looking at about 12 oz for the new KT single stack and 14 for the P11 unloaded. They're a lot of gun in a small package for a decent price.

I don't wear coats that often either in south Texas. I wouldn't fire from a pocket anyway. I once had to produce a firearm on a guy with full intent of pulling the trigger depending on his actions. He ran off. Often times the mere sight of the gun wins the fight. This guy had no real intention of using his knive against a gun. Had he produced a gun, he'd have been shot post haste. Instead, he ran off and I was saved the need to kill someone which I very much appreciated.

 

[albanian]

"In theory a small 9mm of the size you speak would be nice but none are reliable enough for me. The Kahrs have had lots of problems with their small guns. The new Rohrbaugh R9 is too new for me to trust. In general the more you shrink autos the less reliable they become. The smallest 9mm I trust is the Glock 26. But to each their own. I use a 442 when I need a pocket gun.
Pat"

I agree 100%. That is just what I have found out as well. I carry a 642 you carry a 442 but I can still see your point.

I am not against actually pulling a handgun if needed but I will only do it when the chips are really down. I can cover the guy with my gun in my coat pocket even if I get the slightest uneasy feeling. He never knows and unless things turn bad, I won't need to pull the gun. It is just another step before you have to do something drastic. It is nice not to have to choose between compleatly helpless and full out I'M GONNA BLOW YOUR FREAKING HEAD OFF M%ther F&%KER!

I've only had to point my gun at someone with the real possibility of having to pull the trigger twice. Once was the time I was talking about outside a bar in an alley in the middle of the night and once when I was working on an ATM at my last job. I was inside the ATM and someone came pounding on the thin sheet metal door of the ATM while I was inside. It was a drive up ATM and you could open it up and get inside and work but the door was not armored. I had my SIG 220 pointed right at the guy while I watched him from the crack. I yelled at him to get the hell out of here. He left but I didn't come out until I was sure he was long gone. Neither time did I actually have to show my gun. I think they knew I had one without have to tell them but my point is, sticking a gun in someones face is a big leap if you are not sure what the threat is.

For those of you that live in warmer climates, it doesn't apply I guess. In the summer, I don't wear a coat so I have to use a real draw if I feel the need. I think my chances of drawing from deep concealment are very slim. I think the bad guy is going to see what I am up to and do whatever he is going to do in the time it takes me to draw. I am not happy about that but I am aware of it. Maybe I can find a way around that since I am at least aware of it.

Note to self, I need to pratice my deep concealment draw more.

 

[355sigfan]

What I would like to see is a small snub designed around 9mm with moon clips. Smith made some 940 revovlers but they had extraction problems and their all stainless steel. I want an Airweight class revolver with a short cylinder. I think such a pistol if de bugged would be a nice pocket pistol.
Pat

 

[Brian Williams]

You could do what I did combine a 940 cylinder with a 642. It hits like a baseball from a hot fast baller. the lightweight and the moonclips make for a great combo. If S&W can make a scandium 357 they could make one in 9mm.

355sigfan
I never had a problem with extraction with my old 940 or with this one.

I call it a 942.