Point me to some more comprehensive data for 9mm

[Darkngrim]

First off, I'm new to reloading. I have the following manuals; Hornady 8th, Lyman 49th, Lee 2nd and a One Caliber book for 9mm luger. I'm loading 9mm luger and 40s&w, and purchased a few different powders to try; AA no7, TiteGroup, Power Pistol, HS-6 and Unique. The cheapest bullets I could find were the plated Berry's and Rainier, but the load data has me concerned.

With AA no7, Accurate published some data for the 124grain plated RN I have (identical to Lee's plated data) , but it seems very weak even at the max of 6.9gr @1.100COL, throwing brass just a foot or two from an SR9, and no symptoms of excessive pressure as far as I could tell. The starting load of 6.2 would stove pipe up to 6.5gr. Rainier suggests using lead data, so looking at that, the Hornady book calls for 6.2 to a max of 7.9gr @1.090, but this is for their lead RN item#10058 with a note that lead should be kept under 1100fps (7.6gr listed under the 1100fps column).

I'm very tempted to use the Hornady data but fear going beyond the maximum of another data source, especially when I move on to the other powders, as the Lyman book has no 124 grain 9mm data, and the Lee book is limited to just a few powders I don't have aside from no7. Are there better books I should be looking for, or is the Hornady data going to work fine for these bullets? It looks like I'm going to be even more perplexed when I start loading the 40s&w, as my books offer far less info for the 165gr FP plated I have.

 

[RustyFN]

Not sure about the plated load data in those manuals. Berry's recommends loading with mid range jacketed data. I have always loaded Berry's and Rainier bullets with jacketed data and have had no problems.

 

[J_McLeod]

I've been trying to work up a good load for Rainier 124gr, and had the same problem. In my experience, the Rainier's don't cycle with lead loads. My last load was at the maximum for lead, seated shallower than the load data and only most of them cycled. Your results may vary.

Another good source is http://www.hodgdon.com/ for your Hodgdon powders.

 

[LiveLife]

Welcome to THR and reloading.


You will find that most of published load data are primarily split into two bullet types: jacketed and lead.

Most published load data do not list plated bullets and I consider the following when I load plated bullets (let's use 9mm bullet as an example).

- Rainier plated bullet is sized to .355" diameter, same as jacketed bullet diameter
- Berry's plated bullet is sized to .356" diameter, same as lead bullet diameter



With the smaller .355" diameter of Rainier plated bullet, there's going to be more hot gas that leak around the bullet/rifling/barrel bore voids and decrease the chamber pressure. Due to this "leaking" of hot gas, especially for solid based JHP bullets, most jacketed load data will show higher powder charge than lead load data. With smaller diameter Rainier bullets, you will need to use higher powder charges of jacketed load data to produce consistent chamber pressures.

With larger .356" diameter of Berry's bullet, you will have tighter seal between the bullet/rifling/barrel bore and less leakage of hot gas which increases chamber pressure. This is the reason why Berry's website recommend that we use mid-range jacketed load data.

Most reloaders doing load work up will find that higher chamber pressures will typically produce more consistent burn and more accurate shot groups. As long as consistent chamber pressures are produced, this will translate to accurate shot groups.

When I do load development with plated bullets, I start with lead load data and work up towards max looking for increasing accuracy of shot groups. I will also continue the work up using start-mid range of jacketed load data while looking at shot group size. If the accuracy improves, I will continue towards mid-high range but will stop my work up if I do not see improvement in my shot groups.

I hope this helps.

 

[Darkngrim]

Thank you for the responses, this leads me to another question. Can you use load data for different types of bullets of the same weight and diameter by seating a bullet of a different length to the same depth? For example, if I have data that one bullet uses an oal of 1.150 and 5gr of power pistol, i measure the length of it, compare to my chosen bullet and seat shorter/longer by where the base of it would be in the case. Would this work, or is there more to it than case volume?

 

[Overkilll0084]

I run 115 gr Rainiers W/ 4.0 Bullseye, essentially a starting jacketed load. Never a problem in my CZ75. Rainier states (On their site) that you can use Jacketed data - 10%. I'd give that a try, but stay toward the low end, at least initially.
I've used 5.3 of AA#5 w/ good results as well. It's just above the starting load (5.2) in the Lee book.
I saw a copy of the old Rainier Load data a while back. For .357 it seemed quite mild (Weak!) compared to what I had already worked up. IMHO it's kind of hit or miss. I believe that the Lee plated data is cribbed directly from the old Rainier data sheet, FWIW.
Plated bullets can be a pain because of the lack of specific data, but once you dial them in, they work great. Good luck.

 

[LiveLife]

Can you use load data for different types of bullets of the same weight and diameter by seating a bullet of a different length to the same depth? For example, if I have data that one bullet uses an oal of 1.150 and 5gr of power pistol, i measure the length of it, compare to my chosen bullet and seat shorter/longer by where the base of it would be in the case. Would this work, or is there more to it than case volume?

Actually, I normally recommend that an ideal OAL be determined first that will reliably feed/chamber from the magazine when the slide is released then powder charges adjusted to produce accurate shot groups.

1. Max OAL is determined by using your barrel out of the pistol and dropping your dummy round into the chamber (no powder/no primer). It should freely drop in without touching the rifling start.

2. Ideal OAL is determined by feeding/chambering the dummy round from the magazine starting with the max OAL or SAAMI max length (whichever is shorter) and incrementally decreasing the OAL until you have reliable feeding/chambering when the slide is released. Longer the OAL, sooner the bullet's bearing surface will engage the rifling to produce more consistent chamber pressures for more accurate shot groups. Typically for 9mm RN, 1.125"-1.135" OAL us used. For some pistol, a shorter OAL is needed (see SAAMI drawing below).

3. Once you have the determined the ideal OAL, check the various published load data that's available by comparing OAL and start/max charges. Then do a powder charge work up beginning with the start charge and increase towards max load data in increments of .1 gr. Most will load 10 rounds of each .1 incremental charge and see which group produce the most accurate shot groups. Often, there will be a trend - shot groups will get tighter as powder charges increase and level out. Most will select this transition where accuracy does not improve but still reliably cycle the slide as the point where they choose to reload.

If you need to meet a certain velocity requirement (like meeting power factors for match shooting), then you need to select the powder charge that will produce the velocity minimums.

 

[noylj]

First, given cast lead and jacketed bullets, what the attraction for plated.
Next, the "general consenus" has been to use cast bullet data for thin-copper-plated bullets and Jacketed data for the thick-copper-plated bullets (the "bonded" bullets like Gold Dots).
Then "rule" I remember is to start with the lead bullet starting load and work up no higher than the mid-range jacketed bullet data. This seems like a safer method than simply "assuming" it is the same as a jacketed bullet.
Just seems that over the last 10-15 years, the idea of working up a load is not considered a requirement and many just want to "jump in" to a load that "works" for others.

 

[Darkngrim]

I understand your point about choosing the oal for the gun, I'm asking about doing this in the absense of data for that bullet. For example, hodgdon seems to offer data exclusively for gold dot bullets, which I doubt I would ever consider buying in bulk. Would this data still work to determine a safe starting point for developing a load for a bullet I could find no load data for. Lets say hypothetically that I have a 124gr fmj rn that is 0.100 inches longer than a 124gr gold dot that is the same diameter. Would loading it to the gold dot data, but adding 0.100 to the aol result in a round that would perform similarly?

 

[LiveLife]

It will be very difficult for any component manufacturer to publish load data that were tested in all the firearms on the market currently.

Instead, powder and bullet manufacturers test their components using testing fixtures instead of actual guns.

They tend to test using the minimums of component specs, such as shorter OAL, to provide reference points of safe starting and maximum powder charges for particular bullet nose profile/shape/length used within SAAMI maximum average pressures.

When a reloader is using a particular pistol for a specific combination of powder and bullet type/weight (say 3.5" barreled Glock 26 compared to 5.3" barreled Glock 34 and 115 gr FMJ RN), it is the reloader's responsibility to examine the various published load data from powder and bullet manufacturers and identify where the "tested" start and max load data ranges are. Safe reloading principle (outlined in most reloading manuals) dictates that reloaders conduct a work up of incrementally charged test loads (typically done with .1 gr increments of powder charge from start to max while observing pressure signs). This is done to identify powder charges that are sufficient to reliably cycle the slide of the pistol and also to identify accurate loads.

I recommend and practice the reloading principle of adjusting only one variable at a time. I also recommend that you determine the max and ideal OAL first for your pistol. Then conduct the work up of powder charges.

Doing a Work up for plated bullets may seem more difficult as the exact bullet types are not represented in the published load data. This really isn't a problem as I use available load data for lead bullet of comparable weight and shape (RN vs HP) to do my work up. If lead load data is not available, I will use jacketed load data, but will reduce the starting charge and work up using mid range as my max for plated bullets while monitoring the accuracy of the shot groups.

Typically, a trend will develop and accurate loads will be identified that will reliably cycle the slide. BTW, Berry's recommend that you do not exceed mid-range jacketed load data for their bullets. I tend to follow that recommendation and often locate accurate loads between start-mid range of jacketed load data.

I hope this helps.

 

[john16443]

I understand your point about choosing the oal for the gun, I'm asking about doing this in the absense of data for that bullet. For example, hodgdon seems to offer data exclusively for gold dot bullets, which I doubt I would ever consider buying in bulk. Would this data still work to determine a safe starting point for developing a load for a bullet I could find no load data for. Lets say hypothetically that I have a 124gr fmj rn that is 0.100 inches longer than a 124gr gold dot that is the same diameter. Would loading it to the gold dot data, but adding 0.100 to the aol result in a round that would perform similarly?

Darkngrim, maybe this information will help. http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=77249

You can use this information to compare numerous bullet lengths and take it back to the data you have access to. I've used it with pretty good results for bullets I have

 

[Darkngrim]

Darkngrim, maybe this information will help. http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=77249

You can use this information to compare numerous bullet lengths and take it back to the data you have access to. I've used it with pretty good results for bullets I have

Many thanks john16443, this is exactly what I've been trying to find.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Grim -

Well, one thing you have to remember is that if you change anything from what's written in the manual (the gun, the bullet, the primer, the OAL, etc) then the whole deal is out the window. You're not going to get exactly the same results. However, the printed results are close enough to use safely IF you begin at the "starting load" and work up.

Here's a picture of a typical single-shot test gun....


...if your gun doesn't look like that, then your results (as I said) are going to vary.

So all you can do is pick a book, then pick the closest match in that book, and begin at the "starting load". IMHO the Lyman is the best book you have, unless you are loading Hornady bullets. The "starting load" is going to make up for a host of variations, hiccups, gotchas, etc. You simply work up slowly until you get results you can live with or judge best and then stop.

• Several powder companies (Accurate is one) now show data for Berry and Rainer plated bullets on their web page. You might check that out.

• Don't get "hung-up" on OAL. In a 9x19 its important to watch and control, but remember it is chamber pressure you're are actually concerned about. There are 2 major contributors to chamber pressure and that's 1) the amount of powder, and 2) the case volume under the bullet. So in actuality it's "OAL minus the height of the bullet" that you need to be equal when comparing printed loads. And since most manuals don't give you the height of the bullet.... direct comparisons are impossible anyway. Follow?


I appreciate that you don't want to blow yourself up, but if you're using Berry 124gr bullets, then you can use anyone's 124gr jacketed data and be safe.... as long as you begin at the 'starting load" and work up.

 

[evan price]

Remember that Lee does not do any load testing, they use others printed data and pick the lowest (safest?) data to publish. Lee errs on the side of caution to prevent guns blowing up.

I've loaded lots of Rainiers at jacketed data; 9mm has a lot of engineered safety built in when you consider the published loads do not go into +P territory. I'm not saying throw caution to the wind and load to max right out of the box, but you can and will find that as long as you are close to something published in terms of OAL you'll not have any problems going hotter than lead loads for plated.

Of interest to you, I load the 124-gr plated Rainier at 1.125" OAL with 4.4 grains of Titegroup and find it quite acceptable.