Police Begin Fingerprinting on Traffic Stops

[LawDog]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/archive/local_19328428.shtml

If you think you have to be a suspect in a burglary or murder to have your fingerprints taken … think again. Now in Green Bay, driving a little fast or playing your music too loudly will also qualify you.

Since Dec. 30, Green Bay police have been fingerprinting traffic and ordinance violators, so that even the homeowner who lets his dog run loose one too many times could get his fingerprints put on file.

The practice is voluntary, according to Green Bay police. The purpose, they say, is to reduce the number of identity thefts. Too many people busted for minor offenses have been giving false names, and fingerprinting can help prevent the innocent from being held accountable for someone else’s misdeeds.

“We are doing this to protect your identity,†said Capt. Greg Urban, public information officer for the Green Bay Police Department.The practice isn’t winning fans among those in the business of safeguarding privacy issues.

“It’s unfortunate ID theft goes on,†said Christopher Ahmuty, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin, “but if they stop thousands of people each year that are innocent except for tailgating or jaywalking, to treat them as if they are committing identity theft without any particularized suspicion, it doesn’t make a lot of sense in terms of resources or fairness.â€

The net effect of the practice is to make the driver’s license into a mandatory ID card, Ahmuty said.

“If a person has no ID or driver’s license, and refuses the voluntary fingerprint, why should they be taken downtown and treated like a criminal?†he said. “Do people always need identification on them in Green Bay if they don’t want to get taken downtown to the police station?â€

Urban stressed the fingerprinting is voluntary.

“By state law we can’t force anyone to comply,†he said. “There will be no coercion and no threats. If you don’t want to give fingerprints, you don’t have to.â€

But in cases where an officer can’t verify a suspect’s identity, that person may be taken to the Brown County Jail — where everyone is fingerprinted and photographed. The voluntary fingerprinting at the scene of the offense just adds an instant protection for the innocent in cases of false identification, Urban said.

The fingerprints won’t make their way into any data base of criminal suspects, won’t be used in unrelated investigations and will remain on file with the citation, Urban said.

LawDog

 

[wildcard]

'd submit that putting one fingerprint on a ticket to confirm that I'm who I'm saying I am ... is not exactly leading us on that slippery slope toward becoming a police state.

I have to disagree with that .

 

[12-34hom]

This may go the way of search incident to citation, in Iowa a few years back it was legal to search someones vehicle if you had cited them on a traffic stop and issued a cite under Iowa's Motor vehicle code [321].

A few badge heavy officers were searching every vehicle they cited and pissed off more than a few people in the process.

It got challenged - went Iowa Supreme court and was upheld; then on to the High court and was struck down as being to intrusive and infringed on the rights of individuals.

This fingerprinting on traffic citations smacks of that kind of invasion of privacy..

My .02$ - your mileage may vary.

12-34hom.

 

[Intune]

5 cases here, 5 cases there, please extrapolate nationwide. See the problem? Only one way to proceed in order to prevent these outrageous ne’er-do-wells from absconding with our pledged coffer coinage. National ID Card w/fingerprint, SS# and promise to offer DNA sample to any LEO requesting it. When the criminals figure out how to foil this system (and they will, they always will) we-who-know-better will inform the serfs as to the glorious new measures. Do it for the coffers, do it for the children.

LEO's have enough to do without having to take the "non-ID-holders" they come across in a given day to the pokey for positive ID to assure coinage.

Print all of us, make it easier on them. Crooks & LEO's are busy enough.

 

[Linux&Gun Guy]

The bad news is that this is a farce on the public - the good news is I know how to make any fingerprint you want appear on that card.

It involves using PCB, a UV light, acetate paper, photoshop and geletine.

 

[mainmech48]

"So long as it remains strictly voluntary and there are no repercussions for not providing a fingerprint."

To anyone who really believes that there won't be "repercussions" for those unwilling to provide their fingerprint on demand: Do I have a deal for you!! Cash only, and in small bills, please.

The wonderful thing about "probable cause" is that it is a term that allows almost infinite definition, all of them subjective. Anyone want to bet that "not providing a fingerprint" on demand won't become "probable cause" to detain and conduct a warrantless search of the vehicle and person of anyone who doesn't?

 

[Shovelhead]

And don't forget all the "Child ID" seminars in schools.
Great way to start a fingerprint database huh?

 

[Logistics]

Lawdog.....

>>>but at least they're trying.<<<

The problem really IS when is enough enough????

I am totally NOT arguing that they are not trying. But we now have;

#1 Cameras at almost EVERY stoplight in my city.

#2 Cameras at EVERY tollbooth tracking front and rear

#3 We have microphones in downtown chicago "tracking sounds of firearms"

#4 We are also tracked by cellphones and (Ipass in my state)

The point is WHEN is enough ENOUGH???

KEEP the criminals in jail........

TAKE the high road and begin to REFUSE to do things for the state that violate your oath to the constitution.

How hard is that???

 

[Intune]

SH,

And don't forget all the "Child ID" seminars in schools.
Great way to start a fingerprint database huh?

I argued the exact same thing with my wife.

She adjusted my tinfoil beenie.

But my kids are f'print free!

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

The wonderful thing about "probable cause" is that it is a term that allows almost infinite definition, all of them subjective.

The Definition of Probable Cause—Anything that will probably cause you to get your @$$ locked up!!!

My new sig!!!

 

[Standing Wolf]

Police say it's meant to protect you...

Yeah, but we're not a police state: it's for our own good. Heck, even the police say so, so it's okay, right?

 

[Igloodude]

I don't get it - why have a voluntary policy of taking a thumbprint? The people who tend to accede readily to police requests will provide one (and are not likely to be providing fake ID in the first place), and the people who have learned in prison that they don't have to provide the thumbprint will not and continue getting away with providing false ID info. Enforce it effectively or don't bother with it.

 

[Phil Ca]

As a reserve I represented our department one Sunday at an Emergency Services Fair at a public park in a nearby town. We had the CHP,Napa County SO, Napa Valley police units and EMS and fire service personnel and vehicles there. There was a Life Flight helicopter there as well.

We had a booth manned by police officers and SO personnel where we fingerprinted children. The cards were just simple pre-printed cards with the kids nme age ad height and weight, color of hair and eyes, and FINGERPRINTS. When the cards were completed we handed them to the parents and told them to keep them in a safe place such as where the insurance and birth certificates were kept. Some parents were at first concerned that we were planning a data base of their kids. We let them know that we did not have storage enough to do that plus we were not doing that type of collection.

If anyone knows that a police agency collected the info and kept it then that agency was wrong to do that.

What with the kidnapping by strangers and divorced parents that sometimes take their kids from custodial parents I think the idea of collecting the prints is sound. No PD needs to have these prints on hand and should only need them if there is an abduction or missing child report made.

BTW, the single print that some banks require is not likely going to ever be checked by the FBI unless you rob a bank.

 

[Monkeyleg]

LawDog, I have no LEO experience, so please bear with me.

You've obviously heard of this procedure for writing checks. I never have.

At any rate, let's say the miscreant is using a forged ID, but you at least now have a print from a finger or thumb.

Now what? As I understand it, the process of getting a 100% match with all ten digits isn't exactly a cakewalk. How many false positives would show up using a print from just one digit?

I understand and appreciate your concern over jailing Joe Citizen because Sammy Scumbag was using his name.

This just seems like taking things too far, and with a very low probability of a success: liberty ratio.

Feel free to correct me.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I don't see what the big deal is. My fingerprints are already on file with the U.S. government (from previous military service), and the State of California (I have 3 professional licenses, two of which required background checks and fingerprinting). You can't hardly live in this society without getting fingerprinted at one time or another.

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Microsoft Fingerprint Reader, USB-based fingerprint Scanner-$41.99
Too expensive? Not really. Alot of depts have laptops now. Plug and play.

Not too long ago seat belts were just a secondary offense. Now they are a primary revenue enhancement scheme. It wouldn't take long for fingerprints to become a requirement.

Wouldn't RFID tags be much easier?

 

[Logistics]

scheme?

>>>Now they are a primary revenue enhancement scheme<<<

I love it!......Great wording!

>>>Wouldn't RFID tags be much easier?<<<

Would they be voulentary or "under the skin you don't need to know so don't ask" type of RFID tags? It's not that far off if people keep giving up their rights at the pace they are now......

Remember.....it's all for the children...

It's time for some supposed "adults" and "authority figures" to take the high road even if it means endangering their little pension cushy jobs.

 

[LawDog]

Monkeyleg, the purpose of the index fingerprint on the check is not to ID the criminal.

As you have correctly pointed out, it is very difficult to point to an index print on a check and say (with a straight face), "This print belongs to Joe Critter."

I could get into what is legally required to postively ID someone from a print, but neither you nor I have the time.

On the other paw, eliminating someone on the basis of an index print is incredibly easy.

That is what the index print is used for.

Joe Critter has one of your checks. He pops over to the flea market in the local barrio and comes out with a TX ID that has the information off your check, but with his picture, for about 25 bucks.

He walks into Sassy's and writes a two hundred dollar check for an evening of entertainment. The counter help at Sassy's has him put his index print on the check.

End of the month, your missus wants to know what the hell you were doing at Sassy's. You have the check stopped.

Sassy's wants their money. Sassy's files Theft of Service charges against you for not anteing up for a six-hour peep-show.

Before getting a warrant for your arrest, the investigating officer checks your index print against the one on the check. Your index print is a Loop. The print on the check is a Whorl. You go home.

Voila! You don't get arrested, you don't get a record for being arrested for ripping off an Adult Entertainment business, and your wife believes your story.

I believe that the same principle is being used in Green Bay: Joe Critter gets a ticket for some Class 'C' infraction. He has an ID with your name on it. He signs your name on the ticket, but the officer has him put his index print on the ticket. Joe Critter doesn't show for court.

Now, the court issues a warrant for J. Monkeyleg, for the initial infraction, plus a second warrant for Fail to Appear. You get picked up, you proclaim your innocence. Your print is checked against the ticket. They don't match, you go home.

Again, the print is not to prove that someone did a crime, it is to prove that someone didn't do the crime.

LawDog

 

[alan]

I find myself terribly curious as to one thing. Exactly whose wet dream might this have been?

As to other aspects mentioned, everything is, in the last analysis, "for your own good", how does one spell "good", or it is done "for the children".

Just like The check is in the mail, and I most certainly will still love you in the morning.

 

[spacemanspiff]

its just another system of controls that we will wind up accepting. and when the next more stringet system of controls is revealed, we'll forget all about this one.


i'm of the firm belief that once you are fingerprinted, that should be sufficient. never get printed again, or have to submit new ones. i gave mine up 8 years ago when i was arrested, then i gave them up again when i got my ccw, and again when i got my insurance license. when my company obtains a new contract with another insurance company, i have to submit background data so they can check if i'm a bad guy. obviously i'm not one of the bad guys because i have my ccw. i also am not a bad guy since i have this insurance license (which is revoked if i get convicted of a felony).

therefore, anywhere i go, i should be able to flash my ccw and not ever again be assumed to be a criminal.

then again, i dont know why i am posting on this thread as i dont even have a vehicle. and the last time i talked with a LEO was like 4 years ago.

 

[Intune]

Dawg, greetings. Please, are you postulating that the Green Bay police, upon finding the bloody thumbprint smudge at the scene of the serial rapists sixth victim, is not gonna run every thumbprint they have access to and question every swingin’ Rick whose whorls match in any coil, curl or spiral? Giving every whorl a whirl? Sorry

If Joe Critter can forge my checks that well (which are signed differently from that which appears on check heading) he deserves his six hrs of pleasure. At least he gets to enjoy my checks.

 

[GhostRider-Nine]

Sounds to me like these local cops are also trying to find a way to prevent innocent people from going to jail. Granted, it may not be the best way in the world to prevent it, but at least they're trying.

Their from the government, and there to help. Right?

 

[benewton]

Good for the goose, good for the gander....

I'm on my monthly trip home, MD to NH, and get pulled over.

Traffic violation, wrong liscence plate, doesn't matter.

I do the obesience bit, and I still get the "I need prints, and I want to search your vehicle" bit.

I've got to agree to neither, by law, but, if I don't, it's down to the local cell 'till they "straighten things out".

And, weekend killed, I'm supposed to be fine with their plan.



How about this:

I charge in excess of $50/hour for my time, and it doesn't matter if my employer uses it to his best benefit or not.

So, how about your furnish your badge number AND your fingerprints for the suit for the loss of my time which will surely follow. After all, I've no clue of who you are, except armed when I can't be, and surely you're responsible for the hastle that you cause me. Too, remember that I'm on my way home: there's an emotional cost to be paid.

Were it me, I'd have the cop pay it from his own account, but I guess the local taxpayers would take him to task quickly, and that's about the best that you can expect.


So, how about you furnish to me, with me as a watching, your finger prints, your badge, the time, place and everything else relevent to the situation?

Wouldn't that be fair?

 

[LawDog]

Dawg, greetings. Please, are you postulating that the Green Bay police, upon finding the bloody thumbprint smudge at the scene of the serial rapists sixth victim, is not gonna run every thumbprint they have access to and question every swingin’ Rick whose whorls match in any coil, curl or spiral? Giving every whorl a whirl? Sorry

Every driver in Texas has both thumbprints on electronic file at the Department of Public Safety.

The entire State of Texas avoids running bloody thumbprints through the DPS electronic database.

If every City Marshall, Police Department, Sheriff's Office, State Trooper, Game Warden, Brand Inspector and Texas Ranger can manage to control hisself regarding both thumbs on every licensed driver in the State of Texas, then maybe Green Bay PD can keep their paws off the thumb-prints of ticketed drivers.

*shrug* Like I said, I don't like it either, but I hate giving innocent people criminal records worse. Come up with something better, send it to Green Bay PD.

LawDog

 

[Zundfolge]

Green Bay police officers will ask for your drivers license and your finger.

Oh there's a joke there but I'm gonna let it alone


Makes me wonder how well this works