Police positive or Military and Police

[Cosmoline]

I'm looking for an old revolver in .38 Special for bulky clothes CCW. It has to be lighter than my current Security Six. I've narrowed it down to:

Colt Police Positive, circa 1930's, nice blue, very nice bore. $175

or

S&W Army & Navy (AKA Model 10), nicer blue, bore needs a cleaning, $200.

I like the Colt because it's a bit lighter and has an old-timey look and feel. HOWEVER, the word in the archives is that the old Colt DA's have very fussy actions. Once they start to wear out, you'll need a gunsmith to get them back to rights.

What says conventional wisdom on this fair board?

 

[10-Ring]

Can both be an option?

If not, I've always had better luck w/ S&W revolvers so I'll vote for that one

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

If you decide to pass on the Police Positive, let me know as I am interested in it.

 

[Old Fuff]

I presume you mean the Police Positive Special (in .38 Special) rather then the Police Positive (that was chambered for the shorter .38 S&W). The Police Positive Special is the same as the better known Detective Special except it has a longer barrel.

I like the Police Positive Special as a CCW gun because the fame is as compact as some snubbies, it holds 6 shots, and if you need to use it a 4†or longer barrel is a lot better then a 2†one.

I haven’t had the trouble some have with Colt actions. Many of the “out of time†guns I see are that way because the crane has been sprung by dingbats who “flip†the cylinder open and closed. That’s a no-no. If the crane is sprung the hand won’t turn the cylinder far enough to lock. Also many people don’t know that pulling the trigger will usually lock the cylinder if simply cocking the hammer doesn’t. If the revolver you’re looking at is properly timed it will likely stay that way if you don’t abuse it. Finding a good Colt “smith†can be a problem, but Cylinder & Slide are good - and experienced.

All this said, you may be better off with the S&W – it’s easier to repair (maybe). Depending on when it was made, parts will be easily available – or hardly available. Unlike the 1911 Government Model, S&W did make changes over the years that effected part interchangeability. If you get a serial number (on the bottom of the gun’s butt, and look to see if a letter precedes the number) this question can be answered.

Both revolvers have their pros & cons, and it’s a case of picking out what you like best and feel most comfortable with. If you do pick the S&W go to small grips. They are much easier too hide.

 

[Tamara]

Personal preference would be for the M&P; I'm not much into "Brand X" revolvers.

Seriously, though, Old Fuff brings up a good point. You can get grips and leather and such for the M&P a lot easier than you can for the one with the little horsie on it.

 

[Old Fuff]

Tamara:

You're point about leather is well taken. I solved the problem with my 5" Police Positive Special by using a IWB holster intended for the Detective Special that is open at the muzzle. The longer barrel simply sticks through, and the holster also works fine with a Detective Special/Cobra.

The primary advantage of the Colt is that it conceals better. This is especially true if you shorten the butt. This can be done with Colt's because they use a "V" mainspring. You can't do it with a S&W's "K" frame or larger because of the way the mainspring is mounted.

Colt did redesign the lockwork in a way that eliminated many of the problems, but unfortunately discontinued the "D frame" revolvers shortly thereafter. If one finds one of these later-made guns they may have the best of all worlds.

Many people are unaware that the smaller Colts have lockwork that is identical to that in a Python, only scaled down. Specialists, like those at Cylinder & Slide or the Colt Custom Shop can work up a double-action pull that is smoother and lighter then those usually found on snubbies that have coil mainsprings (S&W, Taurus, Ruger, etc.). A revolver's action is far more critical in making accurate hits in lighter, short-barreled guns then it is in heavier ones where the gun's weight is advantageous.

 

[Cosmoline]

"If the revolver you’re looking at is properly timed it will likely stay that way if you don’t abuse it. "

You mean I can't use it to prop up my car for repairs, like I do with my Ruger?

I'm leaning toward the PPS. Here's something I'm worried about though. How will it hold up under a lot of firing? I plan on getting as good as possible with whichever one I choose, including taking it to CCW class and through training. I do NOT plan on doing any tinkering or an action job with either. WIll one hold up better than the after a few hundred rounds of standard-pressure .38 Special?

 

[Johnny Guest]

With that proviso - - -

WIll one hold up better than the after a few hundred rounds of standard-pressure .38 Special?

- - - I don't think there would be any problems with either one. The difference really begins to show when you feed either one a steady diet of +P factory or heavy hand loads.

The lockwork of the D frame Colts IS generally considered a bit less robust than that of the K frame Smiths. This doesn't mean the Colts are exactly orchid-like in their delicacy. When Colt brought out the Police Positive Special, they lengthened and strengthened the frame, and heat trteatment was fairly well advnced by the 1930s. I've done a fair amount of shooting the D frame Colts, and they've held up quite well.

I would have no qualms at all about carrying the PPS, shooting standard factory loads for practice, and even carrying the 158 gr. LSWCHP+P for personal defense. The latter load is of somewhat less pressure than the old Remington High Speed and .38/44 loads of yesteryear, and there were a LOT of them shot in the smaller Colt revolvers. The 158 gr. LSWCHP+P load doesn't seem to have the sharp recoil of the 110 and 125 gr. JHP+P cartridges, and I believe it is somewhat kinder to the light-frame revolvers. I use it for carry in my alloy frame Colt Agent, but as before, I tend to practice with wadcutter target loads and the standard velocity 158s, and probably only shoot about a dozen +P loads per year in it. I do the same thing with my S&W J frame Airweight M37.

Another factoid, dealing with raw strength rather than lockwork durability: Note that the bolt lock cuts of the Colt are set off to one side of the chambers, while those of the Smith K are right on the thinnest part of the cylinder. This gives much the same effective cylinder wall thickness for both revolvers.

Another observation: Both Los Angeles PD and NYC PD used to issue colt Detective Specials to their plain clothes officers. I have read that both departments required their personnel to do monthly qualifications with service ammo. The DS, as noted above, is merely a shorter-barreled version of the PPS, and, due to the shorter tube, is actually a little lighter.

Cosmoline, in your shoes, I'd follow my inclination and get the PPS and be happy with it. BTW - - - If you want some slightly fuller stocks, check CDNN website www.cdnninvestments.com where they have a huge stock of handgun stocks, both wood and rubber.

Best,
Johnny

 

[Old Fuff]

Well first of all I would note that some S&W’s that were made in the ‘30s and suffered through a hard life are not always perfectly timed ….

If the Colt revolver you’re looking at is in time now, and if you don’t do stupid things like flip the cylinder in and out, and cock the hammer rather then slam it back I think the gun will stay like it is for a long time. If it has hard-rubber grips (as most of them did) you want to be careful because these tend to crack and chip. Wood replacements would be a good idea. Given its age, it probably needs to be stripped and thoroughly cleaned and lubricated. Other then that it should be good too go. You will likely find the sights are zeroed at 20 yards for regular 158 grain RNL loads. Changing to a semi-wadcutter won’t change this. Given that the barrel walls are thin at the back (which is one disadvantage) you want to be sure the crane locks tight so that chamber is concentric with the bore. While they stand up better then you might think I consider +P loads to be a no-no. You won’t blow up the gun, but it might loosen up sooner then it would otherwise. The Police Positive is classic, built when skilled labor was available too do it right. But many of them are old and this should be taken into consideration. Post the serial number (on the frame, under the barrel – can be seen when the cylinder is out) and the year it was made can be established.

 

[Cosmoline]

Thanks for all the advice! I opted for the Police Positive Special, but expect I'll be getting a M&P in time. The revolver is a much more recent vintage than I thought. I had mis-read the first digit of the SN as a "4", but it's actually a "B", putting manufacture date in 1971. It's surprisingly light for a 4" barrel, and once I find the right leather for it it should make a great in-town carry piece.

I should be at the range tomorrow, so I'll give her a try then.

My decision was sealed, BTW, in reading a little article last night called "How to Shoot a Boat Anchor," reprinted in the '99 Gun Digest. It was a great piece by Jon Love about an old guy who brings a snubby Colt to a security guard qualifying course. The instructer scoffs at the little revolver and suggests it might work good as a boat anchor, but of course the weathered old guy ends up shooting better with the "boat anchor" than all the youngsters with their wondernines

PS--the down side is, it has mother-of-pearl grips. It reminds me of the quote from Patton:

"Only a pimp in a New Orleans whorehouse or a tin-horn gambler would carry a pearl-handled pistol."

I must admit that these are very garrish grips, and will need to be changed soon

 

[Sunray]

Internally the Colt is a nightmare of odd springs and other tiny parts. The Smith is much easier to work on. Fewer parts.
Saxon, there's is no comparison between pearl grips and real ivory. Even the synthetic ivory is better than pearl grips for looks. And Georgie was an Olympic class shot. Modern Pentathalon, if memory serves. He was a cavalryman. The way you stop another cavalryman is to shoot his horse.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

I have a 1921-vintage PPS that has been "rode hard and put away wet". It has very little bluing left. The factory-original grips are pretty well-worn.

It's accurate as all get out. It has a FANTASTIC trigger pull, DA and SA. Near as I can tell, it's never been serviced. It shoots 158-grain LSWC or LRN standard-pressure .38 Specials right to point of aim. Bolt notches are not peened, hand and ratchet show minimal wear, sideplate fit is tight, rifling crisp and bright. If you treat yours nice, I suspect it won't wear out for a LONG time.

Colt D-frames are a hair bigger than S&W J-frames, and are a BUNCH lighter than K-frames. 20-ish ounces vs. 32-ish ounces. They use the same speed-loaders as K-frames also.

I think you made the right choice, and I doubt you will regret it. [Side of mouth]Now go and get that M&P anyway. You always need more guns. How can you legitimately compare them if you don't have both?[/side of mouth] (Whistling, looking at the horizon all innocent-like, trying to look casual.)[stage whisper]Don't waste time! You NEED that M&P![/stage whisper]

Hm?...Me? I didn't say anything...

 

[Cosmoline]

Mother of pearl looks a lot better on stainless. On a blued revolver (like my new one), it's way too much. Dark wood black plastic would be better.

 

[Cosmoline]

She's a keeper!

Did a little plinking last evening, and the results were impressive. At 20 yards with standard 158 grain lead RN .38's, I was able to get six out of six into a 3" pattern on an old jug. It hit right above the front sight, with no Kentucky windage necessary. And that was the first batch I shot! The double action is simply awesome, though I don't like the single action as well.

I've been carrying around the house, and the weight is just about right. I need a better holster, though. The Uncle Mikes I've got her in now is too puffy.

If every firearm says something, this one says "Get in the car, mack, we're goin' downtown." Reminds me of a lot of '30's flicks, not to mention "LA Confidential."

 

[Cosmoline]

pic

 

[Erich]

Right on, Cosmoline!

I've got a '70s vintage PP(S) (it only says "Police Positive" on the box, papers and barrel, but it's a .38 Spl), and I like it a whole lot. It got me loading .38s again, in fact! I meant to take it out this weekend, but it's just too warm here in the high desert.

Have a ton of fun with yours!

 

[Old Fuff]

If those pearl grips are "real" mother-of-pearl they have enough collector's value to more then pay for a good set of wood grips.

During the late 19th century mother-of-pearl was the "in thing," especially on pocket revolvers and Colt Single Actions. A lot of Texas Rangers and other frontier peace officers carried pearl-handled revolvers and no one called them pimps - at least to their faces. However by World War Two ivory was becoming more popular, especially with those who did much shooting. Pearl grips, especially on larger guns, tends to be very slim, and brittle.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Wow saxon that is one spiffy looking Colt PP!

I'd get the Colt, but i'm silly that way. I know the model 10 is "better" for all the reasons (easier to get a holster less parts etc) but the Colt has that little Pony.

And no I don't own any izod shirts.

 

[Cosmoline]

They're real all right. How do I know? They have a real crack in them It was patched by the previous owner, but you can still see it.

I did notice one side benefit. Last night, in the moonlight, I noticed them *glowing* on the table next to the bed. Not too hard to miss if I needed to find the revolver in a hurry. They're growing on me. I may keep 'em.

 

[Erich]

Aren't you glad you didn't get the Smith?

They only have fiber-optic sights !

Well, because this thread got me thinking about my "Police Positive .38 Special Ctg" (what my revo says on the bbl), I went and loaded 200 more rounds of .38 spl this afternoon. Might sneak out to the range this week.

 

[Tamara]

Erich,

Aren't you glad you didn't get the Smith?

Woulda, shoulda, coulda...

 

[Erich]

I've been drooling over a 5" spikenose 10-5, myself.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well, two trips to the range about about 200 rounds later and the Colt's shooting better all the time. I'm able to get 5" groups at 25 yards from off hand double action. I'm going to try some shooting from the waist and use that long rear sight notch.

 

[Bart Noir]

Cosmoline, you wrote: "I'm going to try some shooting from the waist and use that long rear sight notch."

I'm wondering if the internet reaches alien beings having anatomy very different from us humans. Ain't no way we can use pistol sights while shooting from the waist. Well maybe, but it involves holding mirrors and I think that ended when Annie Oakley retired.

Bart Noir
If you are not criticized, you may not be doing much.

 

[Bullet Bob]

1. Cosmo(line) - I remember that article - he had a Python.

2. Old Fuff beat me to the reply regarding pearl grips.

3. Always go Smith & Wesson first!


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