Poll: Choose .38 special +P for 4" .357 magnum
- Thread starter tbeb
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P. Plainsman
Member
I often use the 135 gr Speer Gold Dot .38+P round in my 4" .357s. I didn't vote on the poll, because I'd like to see more data about its ballistic performance in a medium barrel before urging my choice on others.
The Federal 129 gr .38+P has been strongly criticized by some around here as too lightly loaded for expansion and penetration. A shame, because it's a very accurate round.
Preacherman mentioned the Rem 125 gr Golden Saber .357 Mag. Though it's not one of your choices, I like that round and use it. Sort of an "80% Magnum." To me the flash and blast aren't that much less than standard 125 gr loads, but the recoil is milder.
Finally, I must respectfully disagree with Cosmoline: all the major .38+Ps I've tried recoil noticeably less than .357s in my 4" wheelguns. Doesn't mean that his advice to stick with the .357 may not be correct, depending on your circumstances.
(PS: I thought of an exception: the Cor-Bon 125 gr .38+P, a real firecracker. It feels almost as stout as some of the "mild" .357 loads like the Golden Saber, and has correspondingly high numbers. The Cor-Bon strikes me as a pluperfect Ruger SP101 load.)
The Federal 129 gr .38+P has been strongly criticized by some around here as too lightly loaded for expansion and penetration. A shame, because it's a very accurate round.
Preacherman mentioned the Rem 125 gr Golden Saber .357 Mag. Though it's not one of your choices, I like that round and use it. Sort of an "80% Magnum." To me the flash and blast aren't that much less than standard 125 gr loads, but the recoil is milder.
Finally, I must respectfully disagree with Cosmoline: all the major .38+Ps I've tried recoil noticeably less than .357s in my 4" wheelguns. Doesn't mean that his advice to stick with the .357 may not be correct, depending on your circumstances.
(PS: I thought of an exception: the Cor-Bon 125 gr .38+P, a real firecracker. It feels almost as stout as some of the "mild" .357 loads like the Golden Saber, and has correspondingly high numbers. The Cor-Bon strikes me as a pluperfect Ruger SP101 load.)
Bulldozer
Member
As far as ammo for 3-4" wheelies go,...
38 special is 158 LSWC-HP, partial to Remington flavor as it is marginally softer lead mix than Winchester load. Have had excellent, consistent results with this load over the years carrying wheel guns.
Have yet to try out the 130 SXT or 135 GDHP, hard to find in my neck of NY.
Have an order in for Buffalo Bore, will try them out.
If a 357 gun,...
then I really like the Starfire 150 JHP, as well as the 145 Silvertip JHP. I'll also carry my 158 LSWC-HP handloads that run a shade over 1000 fps out of the 3" M-66 barrel.
38 special is 158 LSWC-HP, partial to Remington flavor as it is marginally softer lead mix than Winchester load. Have had excellent, consistent results with this load over the years carrying wheel guns.
Have yet to try out the 130 SXT or 135 GDHP, hard to find in my neck of NY.
Have an order in for Buffalo Bore, will try them out.
If a 357 gun,...
then I really like the Starfire 150 JHP, as well as the 145 Silvertip JHP. I'll also carry my 158 LSWC-HP handloads that run a shade over 1000 fps out of the 3" M-66 barrel.
DHart
Member
Factory .357 125 gr. loads are certainly effective, but pretty brutal in terms of recoil and blast. They are typically loaded to fly at 1450 fps from a 4" barrel. VERY hot.
The 158 gr. loads are also effective, but have a lot of recoil and typically are designed more for hunting than personal defense. These are loaded to fly at about 1250 fps from a 4" barrel.
110 gr. loads in .357 can get the job done also, but they're really too light and can tend to over expand and underpenetrate. Plus, they cause much more rapid erosion of the barrels forcing cone... not good for your gun over the long haul. The 125 gr. loads can also cause significant forcing cone erosion with lots of continued use.
I think the best factory option for .357 is Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips. Slightly downloaded from full .357 potential, it's still very potent and quite controllable. Light enough for excellent speed from a short barrel (leading to good expansion) and heavy enough to provide good, deep penetration. These typically fly and perform very well at 1250 fps. Shooting this load is not at all uncomfortable in a 4" revolver. I'm really surprised this load wasn't in the poll.
From a 2" .38 spl. revolver, I think Speer's new 135 gr. +P Gold Dot is the best choice. This load was designed specifically to perform optimally (fully expand and give good penetration) at just 850-900 fps which is exactly what results when fired from a 2" barrel. Looking at the huge hollow cavity in these bullets tells you that they're designed to expand very easily without having to be pushed quickly.
From my 1 7/8" S&W 642 it clocks at 872 fps (center of the sweet zone for this bullet)
From my 3" GP-100 it clocks at 954 fps (still good, but beginning to go beyond the design specifications for the bullet)
From a 4" barrel I would expect another 60 fps or so = 1010 fps
At 1010fps, this Gold Dot bullet will likely begin to disintegrate the petals right off the base of the bullet and may also underpenetrate.
DHart
The 158 gr. loads are also effective, but have a lot of recoil and typically are designed more for hunting than personal defense. These are loaded to fly at about 1250 fps from a 4" barrel.
110 gr. loads in .357 can get the job done also, but they're really too light and can tend to over expand and underpenetrate. Plus, they cause much more rapid erosion of the barrels forcing cone... not good for your gun over the long haul. The 125 gr. loads can also cause significant forcing cone erosion with lots of continued use.
I think the best factory option for .357 is Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips. Slightly downloaded from full .357 potential, it's still very potent and quite controllable. Light enough for excellent speed from a short barrel (leading to good expansion) and heavy enough to provide good, deep penetration. These typically fly and perform very well at 1250 fps. Shooting this load is not at all uncomfortable in a 4" revolver. I'm really surprised this load wasn't in the poll.
From a 2" .38 spl. revolver, I think Speer's new 135 gr. +P Gold Dot is the best choice. This load was designed specifically to perform optimally (fully expand and give good penetration) at just 850-900 fps which is exactly what results when fired from a 2" barrel. Looking at the huge hollow cavity in these bullets tells you that they're designed to expand very easily without having to be pushed quickly.
From my 1 7/8" S&W 642 it clocks at 872 fps (center of the sweet zone for this bullet)
From my 3" GP-100 it clocks at 954 fps (still good, but beginning to go beyond the design specifications for the bullet)
From a 4" barrel I would expect another 60 fps or so = 1010 fps
At 1010fps, this Gold Dot bullet will likely begin to disintegrate the petals right off the base of the bullet and may also underpenetrate.
DHart
JimC
Member
Winchester 158 gr. LSWCHP +P.
This should have been one of the offerings in the poll.
This should have been one of the offerings in the poll.
tbeb
Member
"I think the best factory option for .357 is Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips. Slightly downloaded from full .357 potential, it's still very potent and quite controllable. Light enough for excellent speed from a short barrel (leading to good expansion) and heavy enough to provide good, deep penetration. These typically fly and perform very well at 1250 fps. Shooting this load is not at all uncomfortable in a 4" revolver. I'm really surprised this load wasn't in the poll."
DHart,
This is my favorite .357 magnum load too. Again, this poll is not about me...
The choices in my poll all have fairly mild recoil, compared to .357 magnum loads. The heaviest being the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. JHP. The .357 magnum Winchester Silvertip 145 gr. JHP recoils 45% more than it, so that's why it wasn't a choice in my poll.
FWIW, the Speer web site shows the velocity for the .38 special+P Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. JHP to be 935 from a 4" barrel. 954 from your 3" GP-100 doesn't surprise me because I've noticed a lot of loads are faster out of a Ruger than say a Smith & Wesson.
DHart,
This is my favorite .357 magnum load too. Again, this poll is not about me...
The choices in my poll all have fairly mild recoil, compared to .357 magnum loads. The heaviest being the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. JHP. The .357 magnum Winchester Silvertip 145 gr. JHP recoils 45% more than it, so that's why it wasn't a choice in my poll.
FWIW, the Speer web site shows the velocity for the .38 special+P Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. JHP to be 935 from a 4" barrel. 954 from your 3" GP-100 doesn't surprise me because I've noticed a lot of loads are faster out of a Ruger than say a Smith & Wesson.
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DHart
Member
As an interesting side note... I recently chronographed Corbon's 110 gr. JHP .38 spl +P ammo and also Winchester's USA 110 gr. JHP .357 ammo. The Corbon .38 spl +P was hotter than the Winchester .357! Shows that .38 spl +P isn't much, if any, of a slouch. Also shows that if you use it in a .38 spl revolver that isn't designed for +P ammo, you could be making a mistake.
Ruger GP-100 4" barrel
-------------------------------------------------
Corbon 110 gr. .38 spl +P 1354 fps
Winchester USA 110 gr. .357 JHP 1324 fps
Ruger SP-101 3" barrel
-------------------------------------------------
Corbon 110 gr. .38 spl +P 1265 fps
Winchester USA 110 gr. .357 JHP 1209 fps
Ruger GP-100 4" barrel
-------------------------------------------------
Corbon 110 gr. .38 spl +P 1354 fps
Winchester USA 110 gr. .357 JHP 1324 fps
Ruger SP-101 3" barrel
-------------------------------------------------
Corbon 110 gr. .38 spl +P 1265 fps
Winchester USA 110 gr. .357 JHP 1209 fps
Do not use hollowpoints. They do not reliably expand at handgun velocities and do not penetrate well because the hollow portion catches on clothing and other objects.
I have seen over 100 autopsies. Most have involved handguns.
I have NEVER seen an expanded handgun hp round recovered at autopsy or on a crime scene (except for the ones that struck pavement
).
Use the heaviest, hardest bullet you can. You want the bullet to penetrate and break bones. Good luck.
D
I have seen over 100 autopsies. Most have involved handguns.
I have NEVER seen an expanded handgun hp round recovered at autopsy or on a crime scene (except for the ones that struck pavement
). Use the heaviest, hardest bullet you can. You want the bullet to penetrate and break bones. Good luck.
D
DHart
Member
And those 100 dead guys died from what??
Numerous terminal ballistic anaylysts with a lot more knowledge and experience than I are supportive of JHP's for defense effectiveness. But such bullets certainly can and often do fall short of the desired effect... any bullet can, depending on a myriad of differing circumstances and variables.
Certainly I would place penetration higher on the importance scale than expansion.. but expansion can help a lot. It also helps to start out with a fat, heavy bullet (read: .44 or .45). My preference is for a hollow point bullet which is sturdy in construction, slightly on the heavy side, requiring higher velocity to get it to open. Hornady's XTP line is such a bullet.
The super cavernous mouthed JHP's (like the .38 sp; +P Gold Dot or .44 cal 250 gr. Gold Dot bullet) have thin, deep walls and can easily disintegrate if driven too fast or clog with clothing and fail to expand... but if they're heavy enough, the remaining solid base can still penetrate deeply. I think for defense, in general, one is better served by a somewhat heavier buller for caliber than a faster moving light one. At least in that form, you are more assured of penetration, even if expansion is little or none.
The reality is that no bullet any of us might carry around on a daily basis in a pistol or revolver is a magic death ray. Proper placement is critically important to quick termination of an assault... and let's face it... while proper placement and instant termination happens in the movies all day long, in real life it ain't at all easy to do! Most shot people usually take a good long while to expire and in the meantime, they're still a threat to you. Good training, appropriate mind set, and practice, practice, practice counts for more than this bullet or that.
Numerous terminal ballistic anaylysts with a lot more knowledge and experience than I are supportive of JHP's for defense effectiveness. But such bullets certainly can and often do fall short of the desired effect... any bullet can, depending on a myriad of differing circumstances and variables.
Certainly I would place penetration higher on the importance scale than expansion.. but expansion can help a lot. It also helps to start out with a fat, heavy bullet (read: .44 or .45). My preference is for a hollow point bullet which is sturdy in construction, slightly on the heavy side, requiring higher velocity to get it to open. Hornady's XTP line is such a bullet.
The super cavernous mouthed JHP's (like the .38 sp; +P Gold Dot or .44 cal 250 gr. Gold Dot bullet) have thin, deep walls and can easily disintegrate if driven too fast or clog with clothing and fail to expand... but if they're heavy enough, the remaining solid base can still penetrate deeply. I think for defense, in general, one is better served by a somewhat heavier buller for caliber than a faster moving light one. At least in that form, you are more assured of penetration, even if expansion is little or none.
The reality is that no bullet any of us might carry around on a daily basis in a pistol or revolver is a magic death ray. Proper placement is critically important to quick termination of an assault... and let's face it... while proper placement and instant termination happens in the movies all day long, in real life it ain't at all easy to do! Most shot people usually take a good long while to expire and in the meantime, they're still a threat to you. Good training, appropriate mind set, and practice, practice, practice counts for more than this bullet or that.
"I have NEVER seen an expanded handgun hp round recovered at autopsy or on a crime scene (except for the ones that struck pavement ). "
Is this post suggesting to avoid hp rounds?
If so, then what type of bullet would you suggest instead? (sorry but i'm very new to guns and i would like to understand)
Yes, I suggest avoiding hp rounds. People choose hp rounds b/c they supposedly expand and cause a bigger wound cavity.
The problem is, they don't expand. Instead, they fail to penetrate as far as fmj rounds b/c the hoolow portion of the bullet fills with torn clothing, or, best case scenario, they penetrate the same as a fmj bullet of the same weight b/c typically hp rounds are loaded hotter.
I recommend fmj rounds b/c thye provide more reliable penetration. I also recommend the heaviest bullet possible b/c it will penetrate more than a lighter one (even if travelling slower) and will be more likely to break bones.
The Firearms Tactical Research center (I believe that's the name) has some papers on this. But I have observed this phenomena first hand.
David
Is this post suggesting to avoid hp rounds?
If so, then what type of bullet would you suggest instead? (sorry but i'm very new to guns and i would like to understand)
Yes, I suggest avoiding hp rounds. People choose hp rounds b/c they supposedly expand and cause a bigger wound cavity.
The problem is, they don't expand. Instead, they fail to penetrate as far as fmj rounds b/c the hoolow portion of the bullet fills with torn clothing, or, best case scenario, they penetrate the same as a fmj bullet of the same weight b/c typically hp rounds are loaded hotter.
I recommend fmj rounds b/c thye provide more reliable penetration. I also recommend the heaviest bullet possible b/c it will penetrate more than a lighter one (even if travelling slower) and will be more likely to break bones.
The Firearms Tactical Research center (I believe that's the name) has some papers on this. But I have observed this phenomena first hand.
David
I am not sure how someone can make such a blanket statement. I happened to pick up some memoir by a NY police commissioner and he mentioned how the PD's solid point bullets tended to over-penetrate, passing through the target, wasting energy and possibly endangering others. Sykes/Fairbairn in Shooting To Live note the same phenomenon in their section on stopping power. The NY commissioner went to say that switching to HPs solved the problem.
Unless you can provide some pretty good evidence for this assertion I'm going to have to go with conventional wisdom on this.
Quote:
The problem is, they don't expand. Instead, they fail to penetrate as far as fmj rounds b/c the hoolow portion of the bullet fills with torn clothing, or, best case scenario, they penetrate the same as a fmj bullet of the same weight b/c typically hp rounds are loaded hotter.
I am not sure how someone can make such a blanket statement. I happened to pick up some memoir by a NY police commissioner and he mentioned how the PD's solid point bullets tended to over-penetrate, passing through the target, wasting energy and possibly endangering others. Sykes/Fairbairn in Shooting To Live note the same phenomenon in their section on stopping power. The NY commissioner went to say that switching to HPs solved the problem.
Unless you can provide some pretty good evidence for this assertion I'm going to have to go with conventional wisdom on this.
1. I have no doubt that the insufficient penetration of the NYPD's hp rounds reduced the danger to other bystanders caused by through and through shots. Of course, that was a natural by-product of using a lighter, less effective bullet that often failed to adequetely penetrate a suspects body enough to kill or disable him.
2. Generally, over-penetration is a public safety issue, not a stopping power issue. The NYPD commissioner was concerned with stray bullet hazzards, not with stopping power.
The problem is, they don't expand. Instead, they fail to penetrate as far as fmj rounds b/c the hoolow portion of the bullet fills with torn clothing, or, best case scenario, they penetrate the same as a fmj bullet of the same weight b/c typically hp rounds are loaded hotter.
I am not sure how someone can make such a blanket statement. I happened to pick up some memoir by a NY police commissioner and he mentioned how the PD's solid point bullets tended to over-penetrate, passing through the target, wasting energy and possibly endangering others. Sykes/Fairbairn in Shooting To Live note the same phenomenon in their section on stopping power. The NY commissioner went to say that switching to HPs solved the problem.
Unless you can provide some pretty good evidence for this assertion I'm going to have to go with conventional wisdom on this.
1. I have no doubt that the insufficient penetration of the NYPD's hp rounds reduced the danger to other bystanders caused by through and through shots. Of course, that was a natural by-product of using a lighter, less effective bullet that often failed to adequetely penetrate a suspects body enough to kill or disable him.
2. Generally, over-penetration is a public safety issue, not a stopping power issue. The NYPD commissioner was concerned with stray bullet hazzards, not with stopping power.
Certainly I would place penetration higher on the importance scale than expansion.. but expansion can help a lot. It also helps to start out with a fat, heavy bullet (read: .44 or .45). My preference is for a hollow point bullet which is sturdy in construction, slightly on the heavy side, requiring higher velocity to get it to open. Hornady's XTP line is such a bullet.
The super cavernous mouthed JHP's (like the .38 sp; +P Gold Dot or .44 cal 250 gr. Gold Dot bullet) have thin, deep walls and can easily disintegrate if driven too fast or clog with clothing and fail to expand... but if they're heavy enough, the remaining solid base can still penetrate deeply. I think for defense, in general, one is better served by a somewhat heavier buller for caliber than a faster moving light one. At least in that form, you are more assured of penetration, even if expansion is little or none.
The problem is, bullets do not reliably expand at velocities under 2000 fps. That is the only time to use hps.
The super cavernous mouthed JHP's (like the .38 sp; +P Gold Dot or .44 cal 250 gr. Gold Dot bullet) have thin, deep walls and can easily disintegrate if driven too fast or clog with clothing and fail to expand... but if they're heavy enough, the remaining solid base can still penetrate deeply. I think for defense, in general, one is better served by a somewhat heavier buller for caliber than a faster moving light one. At least in that form, you are more assured of penetration, even if expansion is little or none.
The problem is, bullets do not reliably expand at velocities under 2000 fps. That is the only time to use hps.
Making unsubstantiated and illogical statements is a good way to trigger my BS alarm. 
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/ideal_police_bullet.pdf
This is an article by Fackler. He mentions expansion in different bullets and says the 158gr LHP 38 Spc +P was one of only two that reliably expanded (the other was the subsonic 9mm 147gr)
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/ideal_police_bullet.pdf
This is an article by Fackler. He mentions expansion in different bullets and says the 158gr LHP 38 Spc +P was one of only two that reliably expanded (the other was the subsonic 9mm 147gr)
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And those 100 dead guys died from what??
Good point. Actually, alot of guys on the street shoot fmj practice ammo b/c its cheap.
I've had a number of people shot w/hp rounds that died. But the hp's did not expand. Even with the Ranger/Talon rounds. No expansion at all. My theory is that these hp rounds have been effective b/c they were fast enough to penetrate through and through (we found the spent rounds lying under the victim's body). Sometimes we've found hp rounds that stayed in the body b/c they struck bone. They chipped it but didn't shatter the bone, but the bullets did not expand.
OK, I'd love to chat all day but I've got to get back to court.
Have a good day folks.
Good point. Actually, alot of guys on the street shoot fmj practice ammo b/c its cheap.
I've had a number of people shot w/hp rounds that died. But the hp's did not expand. Even with the Ranger/Talon rounds. No expansion at all. My theory is that these hp rounds have been effective b/c they were fast enough to penetrate through and through (we found the spent rounds lying under the victim's body). Sometimes we've found hp rounds that stayed in the body b/c they struck bone. They chipped it but didn't shatter the bone, but the bullets did not expand.
OK, I'd love to chat all day but I've got to get back to court.
Have a good day folks.
To get WAY off the subject:
Please do not bother to read this if you are only conserned about the poll subject.---If now we are talking about stopping an attack, lets not forget the "ouch" factor. Been stung by a wasp?? Hurts like hell. Stop and think about your physical reaction to that pain. Three rounds of easily delivered .22 long rifle out of any handgun (much less 6 or 9) is a very quick deterrent to further aggression. Little shock value, intense pain, especially in the face. And , sadly, most often fatal as well. Well placed head shot is just about as instantly fatal as any .38 of any type. Not a rant, off the topic and just MHO.but I have been shot twice, stabbed once and cut badly enough have the scar as a "permeant identifier". I own a SP 101, Mod 13, Mod 65, etc. My Buckmark ain't no toy. On the subject. My house and truck guns (.357s) are loaded with Fed. Ny Clad 125s.* Big, blue, slow .22s. If I had to go into a gunfight at 25 yards, I would choose the Buckmark or my Ruger Single Six. Up close, I just want to get the most lead on the target. *Actually, a 125+P is the second and the last round in my house guns. Yes, I have a Glock 19. Great war zone handgun. (and fun at the range)
Please do not bother to read this if you are only conserned about the poll subject.---If now we are talking about stopping an attack, lets not forget the "ouch" factor. Been stung by a wasp?? Hurts like hell. Stop and think about your physical reaction to that pain. Three rounds of easily delivered .22 long rifle out of any handgun (much less 6 or 9) is a very quick deterrent to further aggression. Little shock value, intense pain, especially in the face. And , sadly, most often fatal as well. Well placed head shot is just about as instantly fatal as any .38 of any type. Not a rant, off the topic and just MHO.but I have been shot twice, stabbed once and cut badly enough have the scar as a "permeant identifier". I own a SP 101, Mod 13, Mod 65, etc. My Buckmark ain't no toy. On the subject. My house and truck guns (.357s) are loaded with Fed. Ny Clad 125s.* Big, blue, slow .22s. If I had to go into a gunfight at 25 yards, I would choose the Buckmark or my Ruger Single Six. Up close, I just want to get the most lead on the target. *Actually, a 125+P is the second and the last round in my house guns. Yes, I have a Glock 19. Great war zone handgun. (and fun at the range)
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Making unsubstantiated and illogical statements is a good way to trigger my BS alarm.
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/i...lice_bullet.pdf
This is an article by Fackler. He mentions expansion in different bullets and says the 158gr LHP 38 Spc +P was one of only two that reliably expanded (the other was the subsonic 9mm 147gr).
I'll read yours if you read mine. :
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
BTW, what is so illogical about the following?:
1. Penetration is the most important factor in handgun wounding effectiveness.
2. The second most important factor (but far less important) is the size of the wound cavity.
3. Wound data compiled by the FBI conclusively shows that hp bullets do not reliably expand at velocities below 2000 fps (regardless of their performance in ballistic gelatin).
4. Heavy bullets that adequetely penetrate, make big wound cavities and break bones are the most effective.
5. Based on the above, a larger caliber using heavier harder bullets is more effective than a smaller caliber firing smaller hp bullets (at handgun velocities).
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/i...lice_bullet.pdf
This is an article by Fackler. He mentions expansion in different bullets and says the 158gr LHP 38 Spc +P was one of only two that reliably expanded (the other was the subsonic 9mm 147gr).
I'll read yours if you read mine.
:http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
BTW, what is so illogical about the following?:
1. Penetration is the most important factor in handgun wounding effectiveness.
2. The second most important factor (but far less important) is the size of the wound cavity.
3. Wound data compiled by the FBI conclusively shows that hp bullets do not reliably expand at velocities below 2000 fps (regardless of their performance in ballistic gelatin).
4. Heavy bullets that adequetely penetrate, make big wound cavities and break bones are the most effective.
5. Based on the above, a larger caliber using heavier harder bullets is more effective than a smaller caliber firing smaller hp bullets (at handgun velocities).
Your article basically supports what I have said and contradicts what you have said. Not surprising since your article's author is following on what Fackler says in his work. Your article maintains that while bullets do not expand reliably they do expand in about 60% of cases. They are a bonus to performance.
there is something of a Duh factor in that. But it is hard to quanitfy big and small. I would much rather shoot someone with a .38 +P 158 LHP than a .40cal solid bullet. But I would rather have a solid .45 than a HP .25.
My gut feeling is: in small (e.g. .32 and smaller) it doesnt make much difference what bullet you use--they are all a questionable proposition. In large (e.g..45acp) bullets it doesnt matter what you use--they are likely to be effective. In anything from 9mm to .40S&W it makes a huge difference. That probably over-simplifies, but in general accurate.
there is something of a Duh factor in that. But it is hard to quanitfy big and small. I would much rather shoot someone with a .38 +P 158 LHP than a .40cal solid bullet. But I would rather have a solid .45 than a HP .25.
My gut feeling is: in small (e.g. .32 and smaller) it doesnt make much difference what bullet you use--they are all a questionable proposition. In large (e.g..45acp) bullets it doesnt matter what you use--they are likely to be effective. In anything from 9mm to .40S&W it makes a huge difference. That probably over-simplifies, but in general accurate.
On this subject I also like this article (even though he recommends some jhp bullets in handloaded heavy +p+ .45acp rounds):
http://www.sightm1911.com/index.htm
But bottom line: You are only going to get 60% (at best) expansion out of hp bullets in a handgun. And often you will get a bullet clogged by clothing that underpenetrates. Therefore it makes more since to use a big, solid, heavy bullet every time. Only then will you reliably make a large hole with adequete penetration.
Now back to my strangulation serial killer case.
-David
http://www.sightm1911.com/index.htm
But bottom line: You are only going to get 60% (at best) expansion out of hp bullets in a handgun. And often you will get a bullet clogged by clothing that underpenetrates. Therefore it makes more since to use a big, solid, heavy bullet every time. Only then will you reliably make a large hole with adequete penetration.
Now back to my strangulation serial killer case.
-David
Cosmoline
Member
I'm in the distinct minority on this issue, but I prefer big bullets such as the 180 grain .357 soft points to the little high-velocity HP's. I would never try to shoot a deer or other medium game with a 125 or 110 grain bullet. They're likely to get wounded and run off. So why the devil should I rely on those same rounds to stop some crazy homo sapiens who is trying to kill me? Biologically there's little difference between a man and other animals. A man in a physical sense is basically an upright pig. You want a bullet with enough power to blast a big hole clear through and you want to place that hole in the heart/lung area to maximize bleed-out and hasten shock.
Brutal, yes. But that's reality. I put no truck in these wee bullets. I wouldn't use them for a feral hog, so there's no way I'd use them for a man.
Brutal, yes. But that's reality. I put no truck in these wee bullets. I wouldn't use them for a feral hog, so there's no way I'd use them for a man.
Poohgyrr
Member
tbeb,
I do not know if the reason for limiting us to these choices is medical, legal, or something else.
If medical (I know quite a few people with medical issues) then I'd go for the load I shoot most accurately, whichever one that is.
If legal, I'd check the hottest .38 load that I'm still accurate with.
Something else? I'd probably go for accuracy again.
My elderly Mother has some brand of standard pressure 125s in her Special, she is not into guns at all & needs something she can deliver with.
My Wife was trained on a steel J frame with the 158 LHPs, but we are having to change because of injuries (some jerk ran a red light and broadsided her car). The recoil of the FBI load is too much now. Wadcutters are probably going to be her limit....
I hope to stay with Magnums as I get older, but we never know what might happen.
I do not know if the reason for limiting us to these choices is medical, legal, or something else.
If medical (I know quite a few people with medical issues) then I'd go for the load I shoot most accurately, whichever one that is.
If legal, I'd check the hottest .38 load that I'm still accurate with.
Something else? I'd probably go for accuracy again.
My elderly Mother has some brand of standard pressure 125s in her Special, she is not into guns at all & needs something she can deliver with.
My Wife was trained on a steel J frame with the 158 LHPs, but we are having to change because of injuries (some jerk ran a red light and broadsided her car). The recoil of the FBI load is too much now. Wadcutters are probably going to be her limit....
I hope to stay with Magnums as I get older, but we never know what might happen.
Talk about your distinct minority.
Poo, Sorry about your wife's problems. My feelings are that she and your elderly Mom would be well served with a high capacity .22 semi auto or a nine shot .22 revolver. Not trying to drop a deer or kill a wild boar. Just stop your average thin skinned BG. Humans are not animals. They react totally different to pain. Yes, I know all about crack heads, PCP etc. I said average BG, not a charging NFL linebacker. I must be the only person on this forum :banghead: that is under the impression that a .22 is a mother dog of a round at discouraging aggressive behavior. I will start my own thread on the subject and leave you giant killers alone. I really am just trying to help. Best to each.---Tom
Poo, Sorry about your wife's problems. My feelings are that she and your elderly Mom would be well served with a high capacity .22 semi auto or a nine shot .22 revolver. Not trying to drop a deer or kill a wild boar. Just stop your average thin skinned BG. Humans are not animals. They react totally different to pain. Yes, I know all about crack heads, PCP etc. I said average BG, not a charging NFL linebacker. I must be the only person on this forum :banghead: that is under the impression that a .22 is a mother dog of a round at discouraging aggressive behavior. I will start my own thread on the subject and leave you giant killers alone.
I really am just trying to help. Best to each.---TomFastball,
Actually the Israeli Mossad's primary weapon for "wet" operations in urban areas is the .22 Beretta. A .22 at close range into the skull above the ear is more effective than anything else. Trick is shot placement, of course.
Actually the Israeli Mossad's primary weapon for "wet" operations in urban areas is the .22 Beretta. A .22 at close range into the skull above the ear is more effective than anything else. Trick is shot placement, of course.
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