Poll on a gun law...

[JLStorm]

Damien,

Remember this is about a CCW permit basically, its not about a permit to protect and serve. you sound as if a career in the military or the police makes you more worthy, of the right to self defense and to defend your family. I am sure that is not what you mean, nor intend to say, but I could see how others could read it that way.

To be sure a career in the military and in law enforcement is generally a noble one, but whether active or retired, I am sure you agree that no one else has less of a right to be able to keep themselves safe and defend themselves than you.

 

[Damien45]

double standard? I guess I didn't realize cops were of a different blood line than us common folk.

you filled out an application, passed a drug test, did 25 push ups and memorized you 10 codes. It was a career choice

Your mockery has been made possible by my service, and the service of others. I do hope you enjoy your freedoms, for it is my blood that is paying the cost of your Freedoms.

Now, what have you done for anyone, other than yourself, lately?

 

[Damien45]

Damien,

Remember this is about a CCW permit basically, its not about a permit to protect and serve. you sound as if a career in the military or the police makes you more worthy, of the right to self defense and to defend your family. I am sure that is not what you mean, nor intend to say, but I could see how others could read it that way.

To be sure a career in the military and in law enforcement is generally a noble one, but whether active or retired, I am sure you agree that no one else has less of a right to be able to keep themselves safe and defend themselves than you.

I absolutely agree with you. The point I started, and quite possibly deviated from, to make was that the bill is a start towards the rights of all. Yes, it is generalized to certain individuals. It is still a start. Support it, and support the new ones that come along. If all we ever do is strip away the fragments we do get, we will never reach the goal. Take these pieces, make more pieces, build the pro-gun laws up. Piece by piece, we can all be standing on the same legal ground. Stop fighting amongst ourselves because they get and we don't. It is a step in the right direction over all.

 

[trueblue1776]

Please, you aren't the only one who signed on the dotted line.

your blood?

 

[Pilgrim]

I am for repealing. I don't see it as a step in any direction that will ultimately benefit the "little people."

I don't think just because you were in law enforcement makes you any more qualified than some citizens to carry.

The big 'drag' as I see it on passing the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act was the qualifications of retired officers. There are states that treat retired law enforcement as 'nothing' citizens. In the end, the annual qualification requirement was inserted to ensure some level of competency in handling one's firearm.

Shortly after Idaho implemented the LEOSA, I took one of the first qualification courses offered in Kootenai County. While I have shot regularly since retiring in 1999, it was obvious there were retired officers in the class who hadn't shot their weapon since retiring perhaps 10 years earlier.

Any step towards freedom ultimately helps the "little people". I think once the Congress sees that there are very few problems with retired peace officers carrying nationally, it will be more disposed to passing a law that requires reciprocity for CCW permits throughout the states.

The first step had to be taken somewhere, and the Congress decided it was comfortable with peace officers with more than 15 years service knowing something about staying out of trouble when carrying a weapon. I think when time proves this wasn't a big mistake, there will be support for granting reciprocity to licensed CCW people.

Pilgrim

 

[glockman19]

A retired LEO is nothing more than another citizen of his/her city, county, state & country. Either let us all have the right to CCW or let them have to qualify like everyone else.

Damien45,

WOW!!!

Are you LEO? Are you retired? Thanks for the service. What more do you feel you are entitled to?

Either way you are no better and deserve no more than anyone else in the city, county, state & country.

Talk about double standards.

 

[ebd10]

I think it should never have been passed simply because it causes greater stratification between LE and civilians. It is human nature to fight for your own rights, but to fight less passionately for the rights of others. My fear is that now that retired LEOs have their concealed carry rights, they are losing interest in helping others secure theirs. If we are all "in the same boat" so to speak, it gives greater impetus to all gun owners, LE and civilian alike, to push for nationall CCW. In short, it smacks of "divide and conquer"

 

[Damien45]

Quote:
A retired LEO is nothing more than another citizen of his/her city, county, state & country. Either let us all have the right to CCW or let them have to qualify like everyone else.

Damien45,

WOW!!!

Are you LEO? Are you retired? Thanks for the service. What more do you feel you are entitled to?

Either way you are no better and deserve no more than anyone else in the city, county, state & country.

Talk about double standards.

You quoted yourself and then proceeded to make it sound like I said that?!

Your statement just makes me think of a spoiled child who expects the world given to them every morning at breakfast.

I don't have my CCW, currently. I live in CA, where it is a May Issue State. However, I am a resident of a Shall Issue State. I do intend on going through all the hoops that everyone has to go through to obtain my CCW, again. I do not expect to be handed something, I didn't earn. Which, in the heart of it all, I feel retired LEO have earned the rights the bill gave them. That is my opinion, which is of a mind you will never change.

 

[Damien45]

I think it should never have been passed simply because it causes greater stratification between LE and civilians. It is human nature to fight for your own rights, but to fight less passionately for the rights of others. My fear is that now that retired LEOs have their concealed carry rights, they are losing interest in helping others secure theirs. If we are all "in the same boat" so to speak, it gives greater impetus to all gun owners, LE and civilian alike, to push for nationall CCW. In short, it smacks of "divide and conquer"

This is probably the one solid arguement so far. You have brought up a very good point.

 

[Cuda]

Class warfare.. Cops are better than the little people... I think not.

Someone said a 16hr class and 20 shots, but don't forget that many CCW'ers have been shooting a long time have military experience but just never wore the Leo badge. I've had guns for thirty years many classes and certainly more than 20 shots. I think I'm as qualified as the police to carry.


C

 

[migoi]

If we're using...

the criteria of surviving 15 years in a dangerous job which benifits our society as whether your life is worth being able to protect then there are at least ten other groups of workers that are more worthy and should immediately be granted nationwide carry status.

According to: http://money.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp

LEO's are behind at least:

Timber cutters 117.8
Fishers 71.1
Pilots and navigators 69.8
Structural metal workers 58.2
Drivers-sales workers 37.9
Roofers 37
Electrical power installers 32.5
Farm occupations 28
Construction laborers 27.7
Truck drivers 25

Plus, according to an article on this webpage: www.forcesciencenews.com


"The fact is, [real] police rarely use force." Statistically, law officers
"do not use force 99.9639%" of their calls for service. Further, in only a
fraction of all cases where force is used--about 0.2%--do officers use
deadly force. "And it is still true that the vast majority of officers (even
in major cities) never fire their weapons on duty."

Which I would take to mean that the overwhelming majority of the time LEO's are not in situations where force is required to keep them healthy....

Please explain again how these folks deserve a greater access to their rights than I do?

migoi

ps.... I would vote to repeal, some animals are NOT more equal than others.

 

[Feanaro]

LEO in general do a great service to communities.

So do truckers, preachers, and Lion's Club members. But if it involves being shot at, you get special treatment. Speaking of which, why aren't former military members included in the deal? They have plenty of experience with firearms, protecting freedom, etc. Or have they maxed out their Special Government Favor card?

they chose to serve, protect and uphold the freedoms we all hold dear.

And so we should compromise these freedoms by making them weighted towards these people? I am grateful for their choice to serve. It's a dangerous job. And they know that. I refuse to be guilt tripped over that.

That a retired LEO is just another citizen, no better then the burger flipper at McDonald's

In the eyes of the law, he should be indistinguishable from a burger flipper. Lady Justice has a blindfold on for a darn good reason. This is not the same thing as saying LEOs are better (or worse) than a burger flipper.

I do not expect to be handed something, I didn't earn. Which, in the heart of it all, I feel retired LEO have earned the rights the bill gave them.

The right to keep and bear arms is not earned. It is one of those "truths we hold to be self evident." It is a natural extension of a human's right to self preservation. Are you suggesting that LEOs have more of a right to live than I?

 

[Damien45]

Actually, I said the 16hr and 20 shots. I have talked to some that have done just that to obtain their CCW. They did get it, with just that.

I am not saying that LEO (including retired) is better than Civilian. I am not saying Military is better than Civilian. I am saying the Government has chosen to give LEO rights over general public, and we should not try to take that away. We should use it as a step towards equal rights for all.

The fact that LEO was, in my opinion, attacked and generally considered nothing is what I started defending. I lost sight of the point of the thread. I believe in the individuals in Law Enforcement because they do us all a service.

IF this arguement was prior to the bill being passed, while it was still in it's consideration days, I would not support such a seperation. However, it exists now. I will support it because it is, to me, a step towards all having the same rights.

 

[glockman19]

No I simply restated that you are no better than anyone else. We're all citizens of the city, county, state & country in which we live. I'm in CA too.

Your statement just makes me think of a spoiled child who expects the world given to them every morning at breakfast.

Where do you get that?

I do not expect to be handed something, I didn't earn.

You didn't earn it. You earned money, and knowing you were doing something honerable for your country. It doesn't mean you get to CCW after you're out. You get to shop tax free at the commisary because most service men/women don't have the opportunity to earn what they could in the private sector and that's your additional benefit for service to your country.

Characterizing other people as children is not what this forum is about. It will only alienate you from posters that disagree and get a PM from the Mods for personal attacks. "Attack the argument not the poster"

http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

Read #4

I'm going to watch "Children of Men", it just came out on video. Have a good night

 

[migoi]

Oh yeah...

read your military ID card... mine says "Identification and Privilege Card"... commisary, medical, etc are privileges...not rights.

Want my "service to others" resume?

migoi

 

[glockman19]

Thank you migoi,

And thank you too all of our brave men and women who serve in the armed forces, coast guard and law enforcement.

 

[PotatoJudge]

the Government has chosen to give LEO rights over general public

Governments don't give rights. You probably know this, but I think it's important to get this type of lanuage right in everyday conversations. It's about the mindset of free people.

Damien, I'm with you that the law shouldn't be repealed. It should be expanded to include everyone, and as our rights have been taken in a stepwise fashion we can get them back in the same way.

 

[Damien45]

No I simply restated that you are no better than anyone else. We're all citizens of the city, county, state & country in which we live. I'm in CA too.

Quote:
Your statement just makes me think of a spoiled child who expects the world given to them every morning at breakfast.

Where do you get that?

Quote:
I do not expect to be handed something, I didn't earn.

You didn't earn it. You earned money, and knowing you were doing something honerable for your country. It doesn't mean you get to CCW after you're out. You get to shop tax free at the commisary because most service men/women don't have the opportunity to earn what they could in the private sector and that's your additional benefit for service to your country.

Characterizing other people as children is not what this forum is about. It will only alienate you from posters that disagree and get a PM from the Mods for personal attacks. "Attack the argument not the poster"

http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

Read #4

I did not attack you. My post clearly said "your statement made me think of". I in no way stated you are being this or that. My response was on the arguments.

I never said I deserve more because. I said I feel I deserve what I have because. I do not expect to be handed a CCW because I am Military. I will, as I have already stated, follow the necessary protocol to obtain my CCW through my State of Residence.

It is obvious that I have alienated some as a result of my opinions on this thread. They are my opinions. I have so far continued to defend them because I felt like what I was saying was being partically used. If you want to debate things, ok, but please at least use the whole quote as a reference.

 

[migoi]

Actually,

greater thanks should go to Mrs. Migoi (29 years in the Navy) and Miss Migoi (currently near the end of plebe year at the U.S. Naval Academy). I only spent nine years bopping around the Pacific on various submarines.

migoi

 

[Damien45]

Governments don't give rights. You probably know this, but I think it's important to get this type of lanuage right in everyday conversations. It's about the mindset of free people.

Damien, I'm with you that the law shouldn't be repealed. It should be expanded to include everyone, and as our rights have been taken in a stepwise fashion we can get them back in the same way.

Yes, my error. It should be privilege in place of right. In moments of reaction, I did say rights in error. I appologize.

 

[MattC]

It is outside of the federal government's powers to legislate where state, city, and municipal LEOs can carry a firearm. The federal government does not belong in regulating whether or not a LEO from one state can conceal carry in the next; this is a question left to each state--and "interstate commerce" excuses do not apply.

 

[glockman19]

migoi, Aloha to you and the Mrs. Hawaii is a beautifull place to be stationed. My Grandfather was there for a short time as an Original CB in WWII. Spent most of his time in the South Pacific. My great uncle was a resident and prolific letter to the editor writer to the main paper in Ohau in the 1960's and 1970's, his obit took up an entire page his name was Henry Schiff.

Thanks again for the service of you and your family. I agree and thank you for the reminder that "Identification and Privilege Card"... commisary, medical, etc are privildeges...not rights.


PotatoJudge,
YES, It should be expanded to include everyone.

Damien45,
YES, you characterized me as a, "spoiled child who expects the world given to them every morning at breakfast." backhanded but not directly.

I'm over 10 years your senior, respect your elders.

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Damien45:
I don't have my CCW, currently. I live in CA, where it is a May Issue State. However, I am a resident of a Shall Issue State. I do intend on going through all the hoops that everyone has to go through to obtain my CCW, again. I do not expect to be handed something, I didn't earn. Which, in the heart of it all, I feel retired LEO have earned the rights the bill gave them. That is my opinion, which is of a mind you will never change.

So I am guessing that you would support the right of military members to carry then since they earned their rights?

I always thought that rights are endowed to us by the creator? Well that bill of rights says they are but hey, who cares? As I was saying, how does one earn their rights? By doing a good service to the community? What is a good service? LEOs have also done a lot of bad to a community. Corrupt precinct houses in New York. Chicago has a history of dirty police. Corruption and intimidation by police in some areas is real or was more common. What then?

I agree with you on ebd10's point about stratification and widening the gap between LEOs and civilians. The Us vs. Them mentality is very real in the eyes of many posters here. But giving officers the right to carry when others cannot like in Illinois or Wisconsin is doing that. When police unions ask for exemption from gun laws that ban guns because they say they need it to defend themselves from criminals helps do this as well.

I was reading an earlier thread about national reciprocity and I was thinking about it and how LEOs have it but civilians do not. I realized that is a huge double standard. Many LEO organizations have reputedly claimed that once the LEOSA was passed they would support the same for us. Now a bill is in the Congress for it and I dont hear them clamoring for it. I also do not hear many gun rights organizations doing so either. However I have seen LEO organizations call for stricter gun laws that they would be exempted from.

My theory is that the only way to stem gun control and get pro-gun laws passed is to make officers subject to the same laws as us. I realize that this may harm some good people but I also think that it will help us.

I understand that they deal with scum but they did choose that life. And I realize they are afraid of retaliation from the criminals they arrest and imprison. But I am also subject to the crimes and fear the same criminals that they do. I just do not make a living doing that. However I feel that I should be allowed to defend myself just like the officer who is off duty or even on duty.

I think that if cops were not able to defend themselves off duty then they would start lobbying for CCW. Maybe the police unions would lobby for officer CCW but hopefully the individual officers would take more of an interest.

I know that a lot of people say that the police unions dont represent the cops but dont they? Arent they allowed to elect their union leadership? Dont they have the power in those organizations? COuldnt they find a Union leader to say that instead of exempting LEOs from the new gun law that maybe we do not need it?

In the end I think that by stripping the police of the right to carry off duty without a permit and nationally is a good step in getting national reciprocity passed. We could also hope to see more states become shall issue.

 

[PotatoJudge]

No need to apologize. I only mentioned it because it was about the fourth time today on THR I read that rights were granted by the government.

 

[glockman19]

PotatoJudge,

Thank you