rcmodel
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rcmodel
POLL: Remington 870 HD - Which 'ready' condition?
- Thread starter brentfoto
- Start date
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If you voted for this, you need to up your Health, Life & Liability insurance coverage, and move to a better neighborhood!
rcmodel
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
brentfoto,
You asked: In a home defense situation, why would anyone, especially at nighttime, load mag one round down?
That limits you to 3 out of 5 possible shots, unless you have the presence of mind (and can stop "shaking" enough) to load a slug in the magazine just as you're picking up the weapon. This coupled with all the things one must do otherwise, would be a bit much, don't you think?
That's a fair and legitimate question. My only answer is the same one I stated in my first post on your thread- "TRAINING and PRACTICE make what might seem complicated simple, and speed up the process as well. "Load one shoot one" drills are especially effective in this regard. No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important."
What training, you ask?
A lifetime's worth, basically. There's a hokey old song by Hank Junior with a line that goes like this:
"Because you can't stomp us out and you can't make us run,
cause we're them ole boys raised on shotguns."
Well, that's me. I grew up in deepest hickest Alabama in a county (Perry) where the rural population density right now is still only about seven people per square mile. We didn't shoot clay birds, we hunted the real thing- doves and quail. Shotguns were also responsible for small game for the pot, big game (whitetail deer) as well as keeping feral dogs and feral people at bay. We got taught early and often how to handle a shotgun.
I don't know of anything better than buck fever to help get you over the shakes and into hitting what you're shooting at, next to getting into a firefight for real. And working your way up behind a good bird dog that's locked down on a covey of quail can produce just as big a case of buck fever as the most monstrous whitetail Alabama ever grew. I've seen it happen often enough.
If quail hunting won't teach you safety, muzzle awareness, keeping your feet in the right position always, keeping aware of where everyone else in your party is around you, where the dogs are, picking out ONE target from the grenade burst that just went off at your feet and getting on it, and hitting it before you try for another target, then nothing will. And I can assure you those lessons carry over to defensive shooting perfectly well. Anyone who has learned to conduct himself properly on a covey rise is pretty well equipped to handle a gunfight with a shotgun.
And if rural pursuits of brown bombshells isn't enough, there's more. I spent several years as a volunteer riding reserve with the small town police department where I lived for a while early in my working career (I was a volunteer fireman also, as well as an EMT volunteering with the county rescue squad). I've been on the street when things were not looking too good for the home team, and I pretty much always carried one of the department's two Model 12 riot guns when i rode along. The cars didn't have shotgun racks, and I wouldn't put the long gun in the trunk, so that meant I had to drag it around with me every time I left the car, or else literally stand over it behind the passenger side open door.
That meant my partner was always bugging me about why I brought the Model 12 along- except for those times when he wanted to take it away from me of course. But since I brought it, I kept it. You have to understand, this was the same partner who left the keys in the car one night when he parked at a local convenience store and came back to find the keys missing. Not the car, thank goodness- just the keys. But it was still a long several blocks walk for him back to the stationhouse for the spare keys, and telling the chief what had happened (and paying for the lock change on the car out of pocket) was no fun for him either.
I had several years to get to know Dave McC over at GunSpot's shotgun forum, which was then moderated by world-class instructor Randy Cain. I followed Dave over here to THR, where I have been a pestilential gadfly ever since. It's likely no lie that Dave has spilled more shot than I have ever fired, and he and Randy have been good influences on a lot of shotgunners over the years- me included. For years before that I read hundreds of pages on the fighting shotgun, and watched every video I could lay hands on. I experimented with the things I heard, read and saw.
And finally things worked out so I too could go to class. Take a look at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202292 if you haven't seen it yet.
So here's this all-the-way-around-the-barn answer to what is essentially a pretty simple question.
No, I don't think it's a bit much to start out with just three rounds of buckshot in the magazine of a pumpgun that will hold four plus one in the chamber were it fully loaded. I know how to load the gun, and I don't believe I'm going to get "the shakes" to the point that I can't manage to get it done. I have confidence that I won't, if that confidence ever turns out to be misplaced then yes, I might well be screwed. But if I ever get rattled that bad, having four or even five rounds in the gun is not going to be any real help that I can see. I'll just be a dead dude with a fully loaded gun, rather than a dead dude with three rounds in the magazine and four in the Sidesaddle.
You see, I have TRAINED AND PRACTICED at picking up the shotgun and loading a slug into the magazine and from thence into the chamber. I have done it all on my own, and I have done it with Louis Awerbuck dragging me back and forth and up and down in front of a bank of steel swingers yelling "SHOOT! SHOOT! SHOOT!" in my ear in front of my whole shotgun class.
I think I can do it in the peace and quiet (hey, everything's relative) of my own home if I have to.
Why would I load the magazine one round down? So there's room for a slug if I need one first up. I don't know what situation I might have to deal with when I roll out with the shotgun, and i want to be able to load it to suit whatever I have to face. I have learned that no shotgun magazine is ever big enough, and I have learned to feed the puppy so as to keep it barking. I am comfortable doing 'load one, shoot one' as necessary. If we are ever beset by the Fourth Mongolian Horde's Home Invasion Brigade, then I might be in trouble. But the odds of that are not too good. And we have dogs that spend the night inside, who would happily complicate things for anyone who forced entry. And I don't mean by licking them into submission either.
After years of messing about with different configurations of shotguns, I have come to LIKE a plain simple bare bones 870- 18" barrel, no magazine extension, short stock, white light, Sidesaddle. It just handles better and is more manageable as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I could add more ammo capacity- at the cost of a slightly more sluggish gun. I'll risk the tradeoff.
Why would I keep the chamber empty and give away another round in the gun? Because I think it's safer. The handguns we both (my wife and I) carry are fully loaded and ready to fire. Key word is CARRY. We don't normally carry long guns, which means they stay tucked away in one or another hidey hole. It isn't likely any one of our few and far between visitors would ever stumble across one of the 870s, but we prefer to keep chambers empty just in case. Note- I'm not telling you that YOU have to do any of this the way I do it, by the way. I'm explaining what I do and why i do it. What you do is up to you.
And understand- I definitely don't consider myself God's gift to shotgunning. Several people here like Dave or Steve are a LOT better at all this than I am or in fact am ever likely to be. But the nice thing about that is that while any of them might beat me handily at claybird games, or the fewest shells per limit of doves, NONE of them is ever likely to kick in the door of my house in the middle of the night. Nor am I some sort of paragon of the manly virtues, bravery, courage and all that. I'm just a crotchety old redneck with confidence in his ability with an 870.
Oh, and my wife? There's an identically set up shotgun on her side of the bed too. And she took Louis' carbine class last summer, and took notes through my shotgun class year before last. The carbine class was her birthday present last year, this year she got her own private berm built in the pasture beside the house.
Let me leave you with what I consider the most important words of this entire answer/essay/diatribe:
No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important.
See to the first things first, all else will follow...
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
You asked: In a home defense situation, why would anyone, especially at nighttime, load mag one round down?
That limits you to 3 out of 5 possible shots, unless you have the presence of mind (and can stop "shaking" enough) to load a slug in the magazine just as you're picking up the weapon. This coupled with all the things one must do otherwise, would be a bit much, don't you think?
That's a fair and legitimate question. My only answer is the same one I stated in my first post on your thread- "TRAINING and PRACTICE make what might seem complicated simple, and speed up the process as well. "Load one shoot one" drills are especially effective in this regard. No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important."
What training, you ask?
A lifetime's worth, basically. There's a hokey old song by Hank Junior with a line that goes like this:
"Because you can't stomp us out and you can't make us run,
cause we're them ole boys raised on shotguns."
Well, that's me. I grew up in deepest hickest Alabama in a county (Perry) where the rural population density right now is still only about seven people per square mile. We didn't shoot clay birds, we hunted the real thing- doves and quail. Shotguns were also responsible for small game for the pot, big game (whitetail deer) as well as keeping feral dogs and feral people at bay. We got taught early and often how to handle a shotgun.
I don't know of anything better than buck fever to help get you over the shakes and into hitting what you're shooting at, next to getting into a firefight for real. And working your way up behind a good bird dog that's locked down on a covey of quail can produce just as big a case of buck fever as the most monstrous whitetail Alabama ever grew. I've seen it happen often enough.
If quail hunting won't teach you safety, muzzle awareness, keeping your feet in the right position always, keeping aware of where everyone else in your party is around you, where the dogs are, picking out ONE target from the grenade burst that just went off at your feet and getting on it, and hitting it before you try for another target, then nothing will. And I can assure you those lessons carry over to defensive shooting perfectly well. Anyone who has learned to conduct himself properly on a covey rise is pretty well equipped to handle a gunfight with a shotgun.
And if rural pursuits of brown bombshells isn't enough, there's more. I spent several years as a volunteer riding reserve with the small town police department where I lived for a while early in my working career (I was a volunteer fireman also, as well as an EMT volunteering with the county rescue squad). I've been on the street when things were not looking too good for the home team, and I pretty much always carried one of the department's two Model 12 riot guns when i rode along. The cars didn't have shotgun racks, and I wouldn't put the long gun in the trunk, so that meant I had to drag it around with me every time I left the car, or else literally stand over it behind the passenger side open door.
That meant my partner was always bugging me about why I brought the Model 12 along- except for those times when he wanted to take it away from me of course. But since I brought it, I kept it. You have to understand, this was the same partner who left the keys in the car one night when he parked at a local convenience store and came back to find the keys missing. Not the car, thank goodness- just the keys. But it was still a long several blocks walk for him back to the stationhouse for the spare keys, and telling the chief what had happened (and paying for the lock change on the car out of pocket) was no fun for him either.
I had several years to get to know Dave McC over at GunSpot's shotgun forum, which was then moderated by world-class instructor Randy Cain. I followed Dave over here to THR, where I have been a pestilential gadfly ever since. It's likely no lie that Dave has spilled more shot than I have ever fired, and he and Randy have been good influences on a lot of shotgunners over the years- me included. For years before that I read hundreds of pages on the fighting shotgun, and watched every video I could lay hands on. I experimented with the things I heard, read and saw.
And finally things worked out so I too could go to class. Take a look at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202292 if you haven't seen it yet.
So here's this all-the-way-around-the-barn answer to what is essentially a pretty simple question.
No, I don't think it's a bit much to start out with just three rounds of buckshot in the magazine of a pumpgun that will hold four plus one in the chamber were it fully loaded. I know how to load the gun, and I don't believe I'm going to get "the shakes" to the point that I can't manage to get it done. I have confidence that I won't, if that confidence ever turns out to be misplaced then yes, I might well be screwed. But if I ever get rattled that bad, having four or even five rounds in the gun is not going to be any real help that I can see. I'll just be a dead dude with a fully loaded gun, rather than a dead dude with three rounds in the magazine and four in the Sidesaddle.
You see, I have TRAINED AND PRACTICED at picking up the shotgun and loading a slug into the magazine and from thence into the chamber. I have done it all on my own, and I have done it with Louis Awerbuck dragging me back and forth and up and down in front of a bank of steel swingers yelling "SHOOT! SHOOT! SHOOT!" in my ear in front of my whole shotgun class.
I think I can do it in the peace and quiet (hey, everything's relative) of my own home if I have to.
Why would I load the magazine one round down? So there's room for a slug if I need one first up. I don't know what situation I might have to deal with when I roll out with the shotgun, and i want to be able to load it to suit whatever I have to face. I have learned that no shotgun magazine is ever big enough, and I have learned to feed the puppy so as to keep it barking. I am comfortable doing 'load one, shoot one' as necessary. If we are ever beset by the Fourth Mongolian Horde's Home Invasion Brigade, then I might be in trouble. But the odds of that are not too good. And we have dogs that spend the night inside, who would happily complicate things for anyone who forced entry. And I don't mean by licking them into submission either.
After years of messing about with different configurations of shotguns, I have come to LIKE a plain simple bare bones 870- 18" barrel, no magazine extension, short stock, white light, Sidesaddle. It just handles better and is more manageable as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I could add more ammo capacity- at the cost of a slightly more sluggish gun. I'll risk the tradeoff.
Why would I keep the chamber empty and give away another round in the gun? Because I think it's safer. The handguns we both (my wife and I) carry are fully loaded and ready to fire. Key word is CARRY. We don't normally carry long guns, which means they stay tucked away in one or another hidey hole. It isn't likely any one of our few and far between visitors would ever stumble across one of the 870s, but we prefer to keep chambers empty just in case. Note- I'm not telling you that YOU have to do any of this the way I do it, by the way. I'm explaining what I do and why i do it. What you do is up to you.
And understand- I definitely don't consider myself God's gift to shotgunning. Several people here like Dave or Steve are a LOT better at all this than I am or in fact am ever likely to be. But the nice thing about that is that while any of them might beat me handily at claybird games, or the fewest shells per limit of doves, NONE of them is ever likely to kick in the door of my house in the middle of the night. Nor am I some sort of paragon of the manly virtues, bravery, courage and all that. I'm just a crotchety old redneck with confidence in his ability with an 870.
Oh, and my wife? There's an identically set up shotgun on her side of the bed too. And she took Louis' carbine class last summer, and took notes through my shotgun class year before last. The carbine class was her birthday present last year, this year she got her own private berm built in the pasture beside the house.
Let me leave you with what I consider the most important words of this entire answer/essay/diatribe:
No matter what the condition of the gun, the condition (skillset) of the operator is vastly more important.
See to the first things first, all else will follow...
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
Last edited:
leadcounsel
member
Just curious, what are the circumstances you would choose a slug instead of buckshot?
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
leadcounsel,
I'm being hardheaded sticking with buckshot in the magazine. Louis says he isn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammo, so he just uses slugs. I'm not smarter than Louis is- just stubborn.
Any situation requiring either more range than buckshot can deliver, or more penetration than buckshot can manage, calls for slugs. We live in the country and it's possible a fight may go outside. It's 51 yards from our front door to our front gate, for example. And if a BG inside the house were hiding behind the refrigerator? It's Brenneke time.
hth,
lpl/nc
I'm being hardheaded sticking with buckshot in the magazine. Louis says he isn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammo, so he just uses slugs. I'm not smarter than Louis is- just stubborn.
Any situation requiring either more range than buckshot can deliver, or more penetration than buckshot can manage, calls for slugs. We live in the country and it's possible a fight may go outside. It's 51 yards from our front door to our front gate, for example. And if a BG inside the house were hiding behind the refrigerator? It's Brenneke time.
hth,
lpl/nc
Gingerbreadman
Member
I have slugs at the ready more for wild animals than home invaders. There isn't anything in my house that that amounts to anything more than concealment.
brentfoto
member
Lee Lapin-
Thank you for taking the time for writing such a detailed post, which I have edited somewhat.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this tactic-it's at least three extra steps, and they tax the skillset of the operator:
1. You must THINK and try to remember to chamber another round;
2. You must choose ; and
3. You must actually chamber a slug.
I think slugs are ill-advised unless you are SWAT in the mall, have a hostage situation, and you are a super-sniper type with a shotgun.
I subscribe to KISS, and I believe that 1.5 second 21 foot for perp to get at you.
Cruiser ready or cruiser-ready (cocked).
Chamber empty. Be ready to rock n roll without further delay.
Thanks for your comments and for taking the time to make them. And I apologize for not responding sooner!
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Thank you for taking the time for writing such a detailed post, which I have edited somewhat.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this tactic-it's at least three extra steps, and they tax the skillset of the operator:
1. You must THINK and try to remember to chamber another round;
2. You must choose ; and
3. You must actually chamber a slug.
I think slugs are ill-advised unless you are SWAT in the mall, have a hostage situation, and you are a super-sniper type with a shotgun.
I subscribe to KISS, and I believe that 1.5 second 21 foot for perp to get at you.
Cruiser ready or cruiser-ready (cocked).
Chamber empty. Be ready to rock n roll without further delay.
Thanks for your comments and for taking the time to make them. And I apologize for not responding sooner!
==========================
Not a problem with the elapsed time- tempus fugit and all that.
And I have no problem at all with you disagreeing with me. It's still partly a free country after all. And it's differences of opinion that make horse races- and internet forums 8^).
Extra steps? I happen to think an extra step or two between getting suddenly hauled up out of a sound sleep and commencing a firefight is a GREAT idea. When I was much younger I used to fight fires, run ambulances, ride reserve with the local cops as a volunteer AND work full time for a living too. I well remember one morning waking up behind the wheel of my car, red lights and siren going, heading down the road answer a medic call. Of course, that was after two major fires and the resultant cleanup (rolling and washing hose, racking it to dry, reloading the hose beds on the trucks with clean dry hose off the racks) and two full day's work (and not much sleep) in the previous 36 hours. I was just a little punchy you might say.
So for me, having to reach over, retrieve a shotgun, search around and around and around to find the magazine release (OK, that's a joke), pump a round of 00 into the chamber (or figure out if I need a slug first), and prepare to engage are not really that big a deal. In fact I think of them as an additional safety feature.
Look- I am sleeping in my own house in my own bed, with my DW beside me (who also has a shotgun on her side of the bed). There's an electric fence with a padlocked gate between me and the outside world. There's 90-odd pounds of Fila Brasileira (look up the breed on the net) sleeping in the house somewhere or other- she moves around in the night like any good watchdog. There's an exciteable Brittany spaniel in the house, to wake up the Fila (and everyone else) in case a mouse- or anything bigger- shows up. The doors are all locked (my wife used to be a professional turnkey and still has a thing about locked doors). There's an alarm system inside and a perimeter alarm system outside.
I think I can afford to sleep in Condition White, and not have to be prepared to react like I was in a front-line foxhole on the first night after the invasion of Iwo Jima, if you get my drift here. I don't think keeping the house guns with actions locked, safeties engaged and empty chambers is going to be a really big disadvantage to us. Of course I could be wrong- but I kinda doubt it.
I have to THINK, you say. Well, all I can answer to that is, a shotgun IS a thinking person's weapon by definition. Not just my definition, Louis Awerbuck's among others ("The shotgun’s flexibility demands a special set of manipulation skills, making it a “thinking person’s” weapons system."- http://www.gunsite.com/courses/shotgun.html ) I've been thinking most all my life, sometimes not very clearly of course, but I've managed to get along OK so far.
I sincerely hope you will not take this the wrong way, but if doing the things I have outlined here "taxes the skillset of the operator," then all I can say is, that operator's skillset NEEDS SOME WORK.
I do not say that lightly. I am not saying that I'm ready to hop over 'behind the fence' and start runnin' with the boyz at Range 19. That ain't me. I'm no gen-u-wine 'kicker and shooter'- I never wanted to be. I know some of those folks, I have known them since they were working out of the old stockade at Fort Bragg- heck, I still know a bunch of the folks from the Blue Light days, while 5th Group was holding down the fort during the two years it took for Beckwith's bunch to get stood up. Those folks were mostly old SOG guys from the Vietnam era. Believe me, I know operators, and I ain't no operator.
But I CAN run a shotgun, at least as long as I don't have to run very far with it 8^). Being an oldphart has its drawbacks after all. But I still have the tee shirt that says "Age and treachery will defeat youth and enthusiasm."
Slugs are ill advised? I live out in the country, and if I have to take a shotgun outside I can easily face a shot of over 100 yards. I once worked on it for a while, but I never could get buckshot to be effective at a measured 100 yards. With slugs, it's not a problem- not a problem getting out there, and not a problem hitting with them either. And if I need penetration, I know I can count on Brennekes to give it to me. They turn a car body from cover to concealment, and lots of other things too- I know that for a fact, because I've shot stuff with slugs. My slugs are intended to be a problem for anyone so ill advised as to make me launch some in their direction. And the last word in that discussion IMO comes from Louis Awerbuck, who professes not to be smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of shotgun ammo and therefore only uses slugs in his defensive shotguns.
Once again, I am not trying to say I am God's gift to defensive shotgunning. Your moderator Dave has spent a career teaching shotgunning to folks who carried them for a living. Friend sm can shoot better in his sleep than I can wide awake. Lots of folks here are better with a shotgun than I am or am ever likely to be. Because I think something is better done a certain way is no reason to assume I am telling you or anyone else you must do it that way too. I am not going to be at your gunfight- you have to do it all on your own, with your own hardware and software.
If I work things right I will not have to be at my next gunfight either 8^). That's the ideal after all... "the school of the sword of no sword."
Stay safe,
lpl/nc
brentfoto
member
Remember, you are in a deep sleep when all of this happens. And at your most vulnerable. Cruiser-ready (cocked) is the ONLY WAY TO GO! 
On another matter, why even practice out to 100 yards unless you're into deer?
They'll lock you up and throw away the key if you ever waste somebody at that distance.
On another matter, why even practice out to 100 yards unless you're into deer?
They'll lock you up and throw away the key if you ever waste somebody at that distance.
Titan6
member
By "waste" I guess you mean shoot someone? It would certainly be unusual but not out of the question if you live in the country.
sm
member
My personal needs and tasks.
For me and the settings I have a lot of years in a slug is the preferred loading.
There are exceptions, rare, still exceptions do exist and again, choose what I choose for me, my skill sets, and needs.
I grew up with hi-risk needs that shaped my skill sets, and how to deal with problems. Not only in the home, also away from home, and in business settings.
I have not attended a known gun school of any kind, there was none coming up.
My lessons were private lessons, and the ladies and gents that mentored me, had "experience".
Those I worked with, and associated with, were of the same mindset as they too shared the same needs for tasks as I.
Being mobile, flexible, and adaptive is a huge consideration.
Stressed was not being a target, Prevention of trouble, Not going to where trouble is, Evading if trouble showed up, and Dealing with trouble if one could not.
Firearms were just one tool, not the tool.
In some of the "lessons" I have done, like in a shoot house, I have taken a chair, busted out a window and hauled butt out a window.
Everyone else went to guns, and clearing the house.
The instructions were "there is a threat, survive the threat".
I survived the threat by evading when trouble showed up.
This sounds really odd to some, and it really baffled some when a timer was used and I had the best time and "score".
Understand most of my lessons and mentoring did not involve buzzers and timers.
In the real world, there are no times or scores...not in the context of games.
The "start" might be the front door being brick batted in, or a gun shot fired in a business.
One hopes to "score" by surviving.
Why a slug for me?
Risk for kidnapping is one.
My concern has always been entering, exiting and answering the door of a structure.
I cannot go around with a long gun of any type slung.
Nor could those I worked with, or family.
Lessons were along these lines:
My work associate is overwhelmed and is at gun point being forced to leave against their will.
The criminal has a gun or knife, and perhaps their head is behind a cabinet, or something.
Take the shot to end the felony and shoot that slug through the cabinet.
In a business setting, one way mirrors, armed robbery, shots fired and shoot that slug through that mirror, or mesh screen.
I am responsible for all projectiles and one slug is less likely to deflect, and more likely to hit what needs pointing at.
One movie we use[d] to assist in lessons is the opening scene of Beverly Hills Cop.
That movie came out with that scene and it ran chills through many folks.
Body guards, cops, wholesale, retail and warehouse employees.
It did me.
I was visiting a friend in his retail store when two gentleman , dressed as ladies came in, one at a time.
The first lady, entered and went more near the back of the business, and had control of the employees that did book keeping.
I was in the area behind this, employees only , with break room, storage, restrooms and the like with one of the ladies expecting her first child.
Second "lady" came in and there is nothing like the sound of a tire tool smashing glass and getting folks un nerved!
The back of business was under control by the first "lady" that entered. the front of the store was under control by the second.
Exploding quail flush...yeah, I have experienced that.
I gotta gal pregnant with first child and the BGs do not know we are back there.
Damn straight I evaded with that gal.
The front of business is under control, employees have hit the deck...
I have this young lady with child...
Criminals are taking what they want with guns out ...
My call, and my call was to not play cowboy and go out with guns blazing.
I was carrying a sidearm, there was long guns in the back, a mirror I could shoot through...
Get the gal out to safety, was my choice. I got us out back door and into another business.
Practiced plans, and called police direct.
What ifs...
No pregnant lady, me in the back with various shooting lanes, folks being shot up front?
Hell if I know. I could type what my thoughts are, what my lessons were about, it did not happen and projecting is never healthy.
--
My lessons...
I had a lady that I worked with, we were out and about doing the work we did.
This set up, was she was home and I come home, I have keys to her place since we work together.
I unlock the door and there are screams, she is being being raped, beaten and and this is something I hope nobody ever hears in the real world.
Youth single shot 20 ga was kept in the house , with slugs.
My first shot was a head shot to the one BG waiting his turn, . break gun, eject, load from weak hand slug number two and shoot the rapist as he rose up in surprise.
I had no idea what I was walking into, they had audio and dummies set up.
Now that youth single shot 20 ga is only 36" long, it has a 22" fixed modified barrel.
I am 6' and I can stand and have that shotgun in hand and it not touch the floor.
Either hand, and one cannot see I have that shotgun in hand.
This goes way way back to when I was a kid. As adults often stood just off to the side, with one in hand when there was knock at the door and we were not expecting company, either at home, or in a business setting.
My lesson, if I opened that door , was to do as practiced, if that was trouble.
Because a slug was coming, and one projectile is easier place shot, than multiple pellets , even at close range.
My lessons were for me, and mine, for our settings and risks.
Beverly Hills Cop "set up" we used for lessons.
I had a buddy of mine get nabbed. He resisted until told his wife and kid were nabbed at home.
Phone call made and sure enough his wife and small child was hostage at home. Thankfully the kid was a little sick and medicine made sleepy...
He was put into the trunk of his car and driven around for hours, until the wee hours, then forced at gun point to open his business and give the criminals what they wanted.
His wife was repeatedly raped, as the ones watching her, were not as professional as the ones dealing with husband during all this time.
The kid being sick and sleepy , slept through all this, thank goodness.
There is a real world out there, it is not one where one can re-wind, have "do-overs", push a button and get more guns and ammunition.
It is a cold, hard, evil world. One has to investigate, verify, practice what their world is about and do for them what hopefully will allow them to survive.
There are some correct basic fundamentals...
In the same token, there is no one right way to do something.
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.
Mr. Designer
Member
I suppose if you define 'ready' condition as the fastest possible condition to make a shot then the answer would be Full magazine with one in chamber, safety OFF. It's not the safest but the fastest to a shot.
brentfoto
member
Mr. Designer-
Thank you for your post. But that is not what I asked in my posts or in the poll.
The issue was the meaning of 'best' ready condition, and I defined it for purposes of the poll in first post:
" 'Best' is defined to mean the very best condition for tactical combat without a serious compromise in safety. Take it from there. "
Some may believe that your answer, above, would seriously compromise safety in light of the definition in a HD context. Others may differ in their opinion-that's the purpose of the poll and these posts.
The definition may or may not change your view.
I hope this clarifies things a bit for all those concerned.
Thank you for your post. But that is not what I asked in my posts or in the poll.
The issue was the meaning of 'best' ready condition, and I defined it for purposes of the poll in first post:
" 'Best' is defined to mean the very best condition for tactical combat without a serious compromise in safety. Take it from there. "
Some may believe that your answer, above, would seriously compromise safety in light of the definition in a HD context. Others may differ in their opinion-that's the purpose of the poll and these posts.
The definition may or may not change your view.
I hope this clarifies things a bit for all those concerned.
Last edited:
Mr. Designer
Member
brentfoto,
In about a month I'll be living alone, off campus, while attending graduate school. During this time I'll have my shotgun in the "Full magazine, no round in chamber, safety OFF, trigger tripped" ready condition. I wont have to worry about others handling the gun and all I'll have to do is pump and shoot if needed. I would consider the "Full magazine with one in chamber, safety OFF" but I think the risk of an accidental discharge would be too likely, especially in a small apartment.
In about a month I'll be living alone, off campus, while attending graduate school. During this time I'll have my shotgun in the "Full magazine, no round in chamber, safety OFF, trigger tripped" ready condition. I wont have to worry about others handling the gun and all I'll have to do is pump and shoot if needed. I would consider the "Full magazine with one in chamber, safety OFF" but I think the risk of an accidental discharge would be too likely, especially in a small apartment.
brentfoto
member
So, I don't understand why you voted for the latter?
Mr. Designer
Member
I voted with the reasoning of my previous explanation of 'ready' condition.
waterhouse
Member
While certainly rare, if someone were to shoot at you from 100 yards, your life would be in danger, and it would be appropriate to respond using deadly force. I would prefer a rifle in such a situation, but it's nice to know I can put an ounce of lead on target at that range if an 870 is what I have at the time. [Edit: when I say "nice to know I can" I mean that I have practiced it from field positions at the range . . . I am not saying that I am sure I could hit the shot if someone were shooting back at me, and I hope to never know the answer to that.]
You "must" not do any of these things. The gun is already set up as cruiser ready, just downloaded one round. If you need to fight right away, you can get into the fight just as quickly. You are exchanging a round in the magazine for the quick ability to shoot a slug first. That is all.
brentfoto
member
Good luck with the 100 yard scenario.
If it's nighttime and you suspect someone 100 yards away is going to be a problem, call 911 and prepare for an encounter- inside your home. And don't leave it.
Practicing at 100 yards for a SD or HD scenario is hardly worth it. JMO but you'll have a hard time justifying your position in the civil as well as criminal courts. If you hunt a lot, that is a different story.
As to one less in magazine, some would rather take their chances and since the poll assumes 4 + 1 as maximum, I would not download to 3 in mag and empty chamber. Just a personal choice, and, given the adrenaline rush at the time, I think it better not to have to say to myself-'Does this merit a slug', or not? If not, should I try to find another 00 buckshot round, and put it in magazine? Should I rack slide first? What am I doing? Ggeeesssshhhh...decisions, decisions...
:banghead:
If it's nighttime and you suspect someone 100 yards away is going to be a problem, call 911 and prepare for an encounter- inside your home. And don't leave it.
Practicing at 100 yards for a SD or HD scenario is hardly worth it. JMO but you'll have a hard time justifying your position in the civil as well as criminal courts. If you hunt a lot, that is a different story.
As to one less in magazine, some would rather take their chances and since the poll assumes 4 + 1 as maximum, I would not download to 3 in mag and empty chamber. Just a personal choice, and, given the adrenaline rush at the time, I think it better not to have to say to myself-'Does this merit a slug', or not? If not, should I try to find another 00 buckshot round, and put it in magazine? Should I rack slide first? What am I doing? Ggeeesssshhhh...decisions, decisions...
:banghead:Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
brentfoto,
I suggest you try taking a multi-day shotgun class from any one of the several prominent instructors who are teaching all over the country these days. You might be surprised at your own latent abilities, if you were willing to explore them rather than simply pronouncing impossibilities in such doctrinaire fashion.
And as to that 100 yard thing- in rural areas 100 yards isn't really very far. Here it's 51 yards of front lawn from our front door to the gate across our driveway, and the driveway itself is over 100 yards long.
lpl/nc
I suggest you try taking a multi-day shotgun class from any one of the several prominent instructors who are teaching all over the country these days. You might be surprised at your own latent abilities, if you were willing to explore them rather than simply pronouncing impossibilities in such doctrinaire fashion.
And as to that 100 yard thing- in rural areas 100 yards isn't really very far. Here it's 51 yards of front lawn from our front door to the gate across our driveway, and the driveway itself is over 100 yards long.
lpl/nc
waterhouse
Member
First, you don't have to think of it as practicing for HD or SD or deer hunting. You can go to the range to have a good time. Hitting a melon at 100 yards with a slug is a good time, if you are into that sort of thing.
If they are shooting at you, and you did nothing to provoke the incident, you will have no problem justifying yourself to the courts.
Again, I don't think it is likely that you will have to defend yourself from a 100 yard attack. I don't think people breaking into my house is likely either, but it doesn't hurt to practice or think about these things. I spend most of my shooting time just having fun (as opposed to serious training), and part of that fun happens to involve shooting slugs at 100 yards.
As a slight aside, you seem very concerned about that extra round, and lowering your capacity to 3 rounds. It is worth thinking about. Is an extended mag tube out of the question for you?
Lightsped
Member
My 870 only holds 2+1, but I keep it loaded, with one in the chamber with safety on.
brentfoto
member
Yeah, with each yard farther away, Lee, you are that much closer to the electric chair. 
The further you go out, the closer you get.
The further you go out, the closer you get. okiewita40
Member
I went with empty chamber, full mag, safety on and trigger tripped. This is what is known in my dept. as crusier safe. It is how my home shotgun is also. I can rack the slide hard so someone can hear it or quietly.
brentfoto
member
Yes, there appear to be some variations in cruiser-safe. Some have safety ON, others OFF.
What works for me is a compromise. I have the safety OFF, action cocked, full mag, no round in chamber. I don't trip the trigger-bad form.
One risks the likelihood of a ND with trigger tripped. I don't have to trip the trigger at all, and avoid that possibility. I ain't in LE, but I've heard they have certain designated areas at the stations to set up the weapons and trip the trigger where a ND would not have harmful consequences.
What is that telling you?
I merely have to cycle the slide using the Action Bar Lock-and shoot. That slide is not going anywhere unless a person who knows how to activate the lock depresses it.
I like this better also as I lean gun against wall and noticed the slide would go down somewhat on its own with the more popular cruiser-safe condition of trigger tripped.
This method of 'ready' has been instituted by me as a result of this poll. Before, I used to do the same thing as I do now but I would have the safety ON. I believe that that type of redundancy is no longer necessary.
What works for me is a compromise. I have the safety OFF, action cocked, full mag, no round in chamber. I don't trip the trigger-bad form.
One risks the likelihood of a ND with trigger tripped. I don't have to trip the trigger at all, and avoid that possibility. I ain't in LE, but I've heard they have certain designated areas at the stations to set up the weapons and trip the trigger where a ND would not have harmful consequences.
What is that telling you?
I merely have to cycle the slide using the Action Bar Lock-and shoot. That slide is not going anywhere unless a person who knows how to activate the lock depresses it.
I like this better also as I lean gun against wall and noticed the slide would go down somewhat on its own with the more popular cruiser-safe condition of trigger tripped.
This method of 'ready' has been instituted by me as a result of this poll. Before, I used to do the same thing as I do now but I would have the safety ON. I believe that that type of redundancy is no longer necessary.
brentfoto
member
Over 200 votes in the poll thus far, with many differing points of view.
Keep the votes coming!
Keep the votes coming!
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