Popular rifle primes high-caliber dispute

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Drizzt

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Dentry: Popular rifle primes high-caliber dispute

October 18, 2005

The argument echoes on. Many shooters recoiled at the notion, shared by some, that the .270-caliber rifle might not be enough gun for elk hunting.

Those weren't my words in Wednesday's column, but quotes from an outfitter who has had awful experiences tracking elk his clients wounded with a bullet fired from the relatively lightweight rifle.

Some champions of the .270, and there are many, questioned outfitter Gary Hubbell's testimony, as if those experiences never happened to him. Other readers merely suggested flogging the messenger for quoting him.

Here's the quote: "A .270 is not an adequate elk rifle. Of all the elk that my clients have shot and not recovered, most were hit in the vitals with a .270. The minimum caliber for elk is a .30.06."

Fair enough: a personal opinion from someone who has witnessed poor performance among a group of hunters, most of whom happened to have been shooting the same caliber rifle.

Every reader who defended the .270 cited the experience of one hunter - themselves. Their tales were impressive, however.

"The .270 has worked for me," Jeff Dyche, of Evergreen, said. "It took 13 elk, and I never lost one. It all depends on shot placement."

Dave Bauer e-mailed that he has hunted with a .270 all his life.

"It has never failed me, or maybe I should say I have never failed when I have been lucky and skillful enough to take a shot," he wrote. "The key is shot placement, knowing the limitations of you and your firearm."

Thomas Payne wrote, "I have killed 9-10 elk with my .270, and I have never wounded one that got away."

It's an old campfire controversy - this quarrel between advocates of high-velocity rounds and heavy, slower ones. When Mark Cousins heard about the squabble and agreed to referee, he invoked one of the best-known names in shooting history.

"Jack O'Connor is rolling over in his grave," said Cousins, who directs the Division of Wildlife's hunter education program.

O'Connor, one of the most famous American gun writers, espoused the use of high velocity, flat-trajectory bullets. He was the .270's biggest torch bearer.

On the other hand, his contemporary, the equally famous, no-nonsense, cowboy-hat-wearing gun writer Elmer Keith, took no stock in lightweights. He liked his big-game guns and loads big and heavy.

For the record, Colorado hunting law includes the .270 among calibers that might be used to shoot elk legally. In fact, the law allows smaller 6 mm rifles.

"I've seen elk killed with the 6 mm," Cousins said. "But it isn't very forgiving."

Cousins spent more than 17 years in the field as a wildlife officer. He said he also has seen elk horribly wounded by large caliber bullets.

For him, the controversy boils down not to the caliber, but to the shooter.

"Our mission with hunter education is, whatever caliber a person chooses to use, use a gun you can handle," he said.

He agreed with defenders of the .270 who insisted that correct shot placement is everything.

"Bullet selection and shot placement is the most important thing. That, and knowing your abilities and being able to estimate range and make a good shot," Cousins said.

"One of the best things you can do when you're hiking or scouting is to use a range finder and learn how topography can change your perception of distance. We do that with our officers."

Beyond all else, he said, hunters must do enough target shooting to become intimate with their rifle's performance and limitations.

"Caliber designation is no substitute for practice," he said. "Know your ballistics. That comes from practice. Somebody knowing their limitations and hunting elk with a .270, that's fine.

"You need to know your equipment. Know your (animal) anatomy. Know your bullet drop, and shoot a gun you are comfortable with."

Cousins said only then will you know when not to shoot. Any ethical hunter should recognize restraint as more important than rushing a shot or accepting a bad target angle in the heat of the moment.

"Be willing to smile and appreciate that moment in nature and not worry about taking a shot that is beyond your limitations," he said.

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/recreation_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_85_4166405,00.html
 
I have both. If i'm going elk hunting the .30-06 will be going with me. If I'm after Mule deer or a good northern white tail, the .270 gets the nod. If I ever find myself in a situation that I'm after multiple species, the jack of all trades .30-06 will go. I know the limitations of myself, my rifles and those cartridges. While I have little doubt the .270 can kill an elk, I have even less doubt the .30-06 can do the job.
 
Things are all relative. Was chatting at the range with a friend of a friend who guides bear hunts, and while I'm seriously considering doing it, I'm not really a hunting kinda guy... The whole bit of carrying something heavy all over the place, etc... So I asked him if I could just take a .243. He thought a moment, and said sure... Shot placement and terminal ballistics is what matters.
 
I think the wildlife officer pretty much nailed it. Know thy rifle, know thy limitations.

I wouldn't worry about being undergunned trying to take an elk with my old .280Rem. I don't see a .270 being much of a step down for woods hunting. Outstanding bullets of moderate to heavy weight (150grn and up) exist for both, and they get driven plenty fast to do the job.

Recoil from either is mild enough that everybody can shoot them well (assuming a little practice). Shot placement is going to be the most important factor in honoring the game instead of sending it scurrying off half-crippled to a long and painful death.

I have no idea what ranges are being talked about in Colorado, never hunted there. If 300+ yard shots are the norm, then I would go with something like a 7mm mag or 30-06 over my .280. However, if 300+ yard shots on elk were the norm, I bet there would be a ton of wounded animals no matter what caliber was used.
 
To question the abilities of the .270, with an appropriate bullet, to effectively take elk today is really absurd when you consider that Jack O'Connor used it on elk regularly with great success and at great distances, and then consider that Jack was using conventional ammo by today's standards. Today we have the premiums which are designed to both expand and retain mass for deep penetration. The .270 of today is better than the .270 of Jack O'Connor's day, and there is no question that it was an elk round for Jack O'Connor. In fact, I would go so far as to say that today's 130 grain .270 bullets are the equivalent or superior in killing power on elk to the 150s Jack used to take his elk with.
 
I think some are missing the point here. The .270 is an adequate (actually decent) Elk cartridge in the hands of a good hunter with 140-150 gr. premium bullets, someone who shoots often and knows their weapon. However in the hands of the "average" hunter I would question it also. When you see a guy show up to hunt elk with a fresh box of .270-130 gr. (powerpoints/ballistic tip/etc.) ammo then you are probably in for a long day of tracking. I've seen it in deer camps here in Texas with 223's, 243's, and 270's, if you happen to slip the bullet in between the ribs the BT will drop them like lightning. But if you happen to hit a shoulder, or sometimes just a rib, then you have a mess on your hands.

I'd feel pretty good about an '06 for my own minimum, although to be honest if I happened to be carrying my 7x57 I'd use that if the shot was right. But what I carry when I'm going "Elk hunting" is a Mannlicher stocked Dumoulin carbine in .338 Win Mag. , 21" barrel and 250 grains at 2700 FPS. Light enough to carry and heavy enough to get through no matter what the angle.

Now I tend to err on the side of overkill, I'm sure I can kill an elk quickly and humanely with the 7x57 when the shot (angle and distance) is right, but I'm sure I can kill an elk with the 338. For those of us not fortunate enough to live in elk country an elk hunt is expensive and time consuming, why use a weapon that limits your chances any more than necessary.
 
I've seen it in deer camps here in Texas with 223's, 243's, and 270's, if you happen to slip the bullet in between the ribs the BT will drop them like lightning. But if you happen to hit a shoulder, or sometimes just a rib, then you have a mess on your hands.

My experience, is that a .270 Ballistic Tip will slice through a Whitetail shoulder and ribs (both sides) with absolutely zero problem. Every shot I have taken with that setup has been a deer DRT. However, I agree that I would want something a bit larger for Elk.
 
bogie said:
Things are all relative. Was chatting at the range with a friend of a friend who guides bear hunts, and while I'm seriously considering doing it, I'm not really a hunting kinda guy... The whole bit of carrying something heavy all over the place, etc... So I asked him if I could just take a .243. He thought a moment, and said sure... Shot placement and terminal ballistics is what matters.

Did you ask him, "What if your partner jostles your elbow just as you squeeze the trigger? Would you want a larger caliber for your NEXT shot at that wounded and angry bear?":eek:
 
I read the article by Dentry in the Denver Post that received the backlash and brought about his second article of generally "don't shoot the messager". Also, just happens that I know Hubble personally as we live in the same area of Colorado and cross paths and share discussions every so often. Gary's known for speaking his mind, which I respect but don't always agree. This is one of those occasions. I too have spent some time in the hills guiding hunters here in Colorado. Killed elk with a 270 among others larger and smaller cartridges, "at least some might consider smaller (25-06)". From my personal past experience of tracking some wounded animals of clients it had entirely to do with the hunter, not the gun he was carrying. I tracked a bull for over a mile before we could catch up with him a hunter wounded with a 300 win mag. The bull was only 80 yards and he shot him in the neck. Thought this was a good kill zone. Wrong! Unless you hit the small spot in the neck where the spine or jugler are located.
The 270 is a fine elk rifle for lung shots to 350 yards.
Ed Dentry is a writer that took a trip up in the Maroon Bells with Hubble and developed a "what not to do list". Most of which I agree with.
Just don't agree with Gary on this point.
 
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