Possession of rifle brass in NJ

[Frank Ettin]

Possession of brass in NJ is fine....

How do you know?

...Keep the brass in the checked baggage until he gets home and all should be fine....

How do you know?

...I don't remember the name of the act, but traveling through even NYC should cover him if he is transporting it from one legal place to another.

If you can't even remember what the law is, how can you know that something is okay under the law? And in any case, the law (the FOPA) doesn't even cover the issue.

If you can't back up your opinion with applicable legal authority, don't bother posting.

 

[Screwball]

Screwball,
I can't agree that it's even similar to an apple. Despite your looking up NJ statutes, having even a single piece of rifle brass on the floor of your vehicle may not in itself be illegal. However, it may prompt a law enforcement officer to question and possibly detain an individual. An apple would excite only a customs official who is worried about certain pesticides and/or diseases.

Just like having a SINGLE carton of cigarettes for personal consumption while driving North of I95 may be “legal”, I would not put it in plain view from outside the vehicle. Likewise, I would not drive around town with my beer can collection on Saturday night. ... What I am saying is: Even if it's legal, be discrete.

Chuck

Chuck, the law itself was asked... which there is not any other point in 2C (Criminal Code for NJ) that defines a case as ammunition.

Now, if it was seen in a traffic stop, how exactly would I put my view on that? Is the person in question going to leave it out in the open? Is he going to sit there when the officer comes up and wave the case in front of his face? Is there a reason for the officer to search whatever bag the single case is in? At that point, would walking with a case in his bag cause a higher likelihood of the person being stuck by lightning? These are all great questions, but that doesn't change the fact that it is not illegal within the context of the law.

I did not touch on flying with it, as I don't know that. I'm not TSA, but working in this state for a few years as L/E, I'll say that a single case wouldn't turn my attention anymore than to make sure the person isn't going to pull a gun out and shoot me (but that judgement would be made by a lot of other variables that could only be looked at during that situation... and I'd still be watching it until the end of the stop either way).

Having an empty case could be suspicion to look further, but unless he is breaking another specific law (having weed in the bag next to the case, for example) it isn't going to send him to jail. If, in the unlikelihood that a question was ask, "I went shooting with a friend out of state and he gave me it for a souvenir" would probably be good enough. I'll say it would if it was my traffic stop...

If you are hiding your cigarette pack when driving anywhere in NJ because of worrying about getting locked up, you really must think that L/E here is that bored. We are not all mimicking the Gestapo, looking for a reason to arrest civilians that have guns in legal/morally right applications. Does it happen? Yes, because if someone that is carrying from out of state was let go, and someone from the media or AG office finds out, that officer is likely losing their job. Just as some people say about pimping, being in L/E "ain't easy." Do the wrong thing and your entire career, even everything you worked hard for throughout your life, can be taken away from you.

 

[guitarguy314]

thanks again everyone.

 

[Tophernj]

How do you know?

How do you know?

If you can't even remember what the law is, how can you know that something is okay under the law? And in any case, the law (the FOPA) doesn't even cover the issue.

If you can't back up your opinion with applicable legal authority, don't bother posting.

I know because I live here in New Jersey. If possession of brass was an issue, I'd be in a lot of trouble. And just because I can't remember the name of something doesn't meant it doesn't exist. There is a law specifically dealing with transportation of firearms/prohibited items in one state that essentially says that if you are transporting the item that was purchased legally in state "A" and are transporting it through a state where possession of that item is regulated to get to your home where it's legal, you are not in violation of any laws. Meaning, if I live in NJ, and want to travel to PA with a handgun to shoot at a range and for some reason I have to travel through some part of NYC and get pulled over for something, possession of that firearm in that instance is legal as long as the firearm meets the exemptions in NJ and Pa.

The name of the law... Something "Transportation blah,blah,blah Something Something" . Look it up.

C

 

[steelerdude99]

Chuck, the law itself was asked... which there is not any other point in 2C (Criminal Code for NJ) that defines a case as ammunition.

Now, if it was seen in a traffic stop, how exactly would I put my view on that? Is the person in question going to leave it out in the open? Is he going to sit there when the officer comes up and wave the case in front of his face? Is there a reason for the officer to search whatever bag the single case is in? At that point, would walking with a case in his bag cause a higher likelihood of the person being stuck by lightning? These are all great questions, but that doesn't change the fact that it is not illegal within the context of the law.

....

I would not expect anyone to dumb enough to "wave the case in front of his face". That aggressive move would get a harsh negative reaction no matter what the item was. I am addressing the situation of anything that gun related "being in plain view" from outside the vehicle will likely get an officer's attention. That item may sitting on the front seat, on the dash, in the back seat, etc ... The reaction will depend on the officer, but why put yourself such a situation?

chuck

 

[Frank Ettin]

...There is a law specifically dealing with transportation of firearms/prohibited items in one state that essentially says that if you are transporting the item that was purchased legally in state "A" and are transporting it through a state where possession of that item is regulated to get to your home where it's legal, you are not in violation of any laws. Meaning, if I live in NJ, and want to travel to PA with a handgun to shoot at a range and for some reason I have to travel through some part of NYC and get pulled over for something, possession of that firearm in that instance is legal as long as the firearm meets the exemptions in NJ and Pa.

The name of the law... Something "Transportation blah,blah,blah Something Something" . Look it up.

Thank you for making it clear that you don't know what you're talking about. It's not our job to look up some law you think exists but can't name yourself. It's really your job.

But I happen to know the law, and you are apparently thinking of 18 USC 926A, which reads:

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

But of course it has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever New Jersey law might be regarding the possession of rifle brass.

 

[Lord Teapot]

Thank you for making it clear that you don't know what you're talking about. It's not our job to look up some law you think exists but can't name yourself. It's really your job.

But I happen to know the law, and you are apparently thinking of 18 USC 926A, which reads:

​

But of course it has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever New Jersey law might be regarding the possession of rifle brass.

http://www.njsp.org/info/pdf/firearms/njac-title13-ch54.pdf

looks like it isnt ammo in NJ if it isnt together with a bullet and a primer or fuse.

"Ammunition" means various projectiles, including bullets, missiles, slugs or balls together with fuses, propelling charges and primers that may be fired, ejected, projected, released, or emitted from firearms or weapons"

since it's just a brass case, with a non-functional primer and no bullet...no problem unless there's a law regulating reloading components including brass.

 

[Tom609]

I keep a spent 30-06 case in the truck to use as a cigar punch. Maybe i'll have to rethink that.

 

[Lord Teapot]

I keep a spent 30-06 case in the truck to use as a cigar punch. Maybe i'll have to rethink that.

doubtful, since it is not ammunition, as it only has 1/3 requirements to be considered such by NJ PD.

 

[Buck13]

How bizarre. I thought the obvious answer to the op was to don't worry since it is just inert metal at this point. After reading the Washington post article above, now i am sick. What have we become?

If hundreds of people collected a handful of .22LR brass and mailed a few to the DC offices of their favorite Reps, Senators, Justices, etc., do you suppose anyone would get the point that criminalizing possession of this stuff is stupid?

If the brass was hammered flat for easy mailing, would that make it legal or would the anti-social nature of anything gun related persist? (Can't rely on DC prosecutors to understand that spent rimfire cases are already useless. Or were they actually clever enough to exempt rimfires? I highly doubt it, but I'm too lazy to try to look it up.)

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I keep a spent 30-06 case in the truck to use as a cigar punch....

And it might very well be okay.

But we've been asked a question about whether something is legal, and we've gotten a lot of responses along the lines of, "Of course it is" or "I know it is because I live there, do it, and aren't in jail [yet]."

Those are all very poor answers to the type of question asked, and they certainly aren't the sort of answers upon which anyone should rely. We've seen many examples of things folks thought must obviously be legal, but weren't. We seen many examples of people not well understanding the laws of the States in which they live.

We've also had some members who looked up the law and found nothing that would make what the OP's friend wants to do illegal. That's more like it and a much more useful way to try to answer these sorts of questions.

I'll leave this thread open for a bit to see if anyone has anything useful and constructive to add.

 

[Tom609]

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer to this question. NJ laws are intentionally vague. They imply what is legal and it's assumed all other uses are therefore illegal. I could see this being decided before a judge if the cop that finds it is having a bad day.

 

[Pete D.]

Story

That act if it is NY that is in question is probably the SAFE Act.
Quick story about bags and ammo and flying...
I have a small back pack that I used as a range bag for years. Then I decided to give another life. Emptied it. Shook it out. Put it into the washing machine.
Good as new.
Some months later, it was December of 2001, my wife and I were traveling and I used the bag as a carry on. The bag stopped as it was going through the scanner in security.
There is a flurry of activity. People come over and look at the bag....and at me.
A gray haired managerial type fellow approaches:
"Is this your bag, sir? Please stand over here, we need to check it again." Meanwhile, my wife observes three armed Nat'l Guard troops quietly walk up and stand behind me. I never saw them.
The gray haired guy comes back to me and says "sir, we have detected elements of RDX. Do you know what that is?"
Imagine my surprise.
So....rather than say "yes, of course", I told him the range bag story and that what they detected was leftover ash and unburned propellant that, evidently, had not washed away.
He told me not to use the bag for travel and we made our flight.
I wonder, now, what would have happened had I left a few fired cases in the bag.
Pete

 

[barnbwt]

Of course it is" or "I know it is because I live there, do it, and aren't in jail [yet]."

"Those are all very poor answers to the type of question asked"
Not so fast; I would submit that in light of NJ's hyperbolic pursuit of charges against even the most unwitting and telegenic suspects, that if the authorities thought they had this power of prosecution*, they would have already been running wild with it for years, now.


"...and they certainly aren't the sort of answers upon which anyone should rely"
Fair enough.

TCB

*What the authorities "think" they can get away with prosecuting is what actually matters, at the end of the day. In the case of Shaneen Allen, it quickly became apparent to authorities that they were politically unable to pursue charges/punishment to the fullest extent allowed under the law as they had desired, so she was granted leniency. Likewise, Mark Witaschek was convicted of possessing ammunition by a judge in DC, despite the evidence in no way satisfying the language of the statute being cited, all because neither Judge nor prosecution nor expert witnesses had even the slightest technical knowledge regarding firearms (and I suspect Mr. Witaschek was not objecting so as to have them/their law ultimately hoist upon their ignorant petards)

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Not so fast; I would submit that in light of NJ's hyperbolic pursuit of charges against even the most unwitting and telegenic suspects, that if the authorities thought they had this power of prosecution*,...

Phooey!

Prosecutorial discretion is an ephemeral thing. Today, certain cases might seem unattractive to prosecute. Tomorrow things could be entirely different.

 

[Tom488]

I'll leave this thread open for a bit to see if anyone has anything useful and constructive to add.

As someone who is not a lawyer, but who reads chapters 39 and 58 of the NJ statutes on at least a weekly basis, I can say with a great deal of certainly, that there is no prohibition on the possession of a fired case.

NJ has the following prohibitions relating to ammunition (not going into all the nuances of each - that would be too long of a post, especially in this TL;DR world of today):

- Restrictions on the possession of hollow-point BULLETS (not ammo - the actual projectile)
- Restrictions on the possession of armor-piercing ammunition
- Restrictions on the discharging (but not possession) of tracer or incendiary ammunition
- Restrictions on the transfer or acquisition of handgun ammunition
- Restrictions on the amount of stored powder for reloading (both black and smokeless)

But no where, in any of the statutes, is there ANY restriction or prohibition on the possession of a fired case.

Can I prove that? No, I can't. How do you prove something doesn't exist?

 

[herrwalther]

"I know it is because I live there, do it, and aren't in jail [yet]."

This argument is about as useful as saying speeding isn't illegal because I haven't been pulled over for it going 5 miles over the posted limit. My wife lived in the UK for a year. And she didn't know busking was illegal. Just because you live in a place doesn't make someone instantly in tune with all laws there.

I have a small back pack that I used as a range bag for years. Then I decided to give another life. Emptied it. Shook it out. Put it into the washing machine.

Not to get too far of topic but a similar instance happened to me. I was going back to Afghanistan from mid-tour leave in uniform. When I got selected for explosive residue testing. Carrying a bag that I used to transport all sorts of fun explosives and ammo. That indicator paper turned the brightest shade of purple. That was an extra 20 minutes I didn't need to spend with TSA.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Post 41 is probably as good as it's going to get.