Powder storage.

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Apiidae

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Hello everyone.
Just a simple question; after I open a bottle of powder, I throw in a silica gel pack to keep it dry. I can't see a problem with it, but does anyone know if there is anything that might be wrong with it?
 
Yes.

Don't Do That!

NEVER put anything in a powder container that didn't come out of the container in the first place!
Like when you empty your powder measure back in it.


Smokeless powder is not hydroscopic, and will not attract undue moisture in a sealed powder container.

They are even not sealed very good when you buy them if you noticed.

Who knows what a silica gel pack might do too powder.

If they thought it needed one?
The manufacture would have put one it it.

But they didn't, don't, never have, and never will.

rc
 
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As long as your powder is stored in a cool, dry place, I don't see the need for it. There's way more stories about reloaders using decades-old powder successfully than there are stories of powder gone bad.

Only thing I do is rotate through my powder from oldest to newest.
 
I grew up with my grandparents owning corner grocery stores, so it is in my blood to rotate stock. I even now rotate the dishes and cutlery in my kitchen it's that much in my blood:).
I live in the pacific northwest, and it is pretty damp in the winter months. My shop where I reload is heated, but not room temp all the time. So I have been putting silica gel packs in all my cabinets and storage bins (and powder jars).
The first response to my post got me thinking 'why not call the horse?' So I have the number to Hodgdon loaded on my phone to dial first thing in the morning. So I will get a responce straight from the horses mouth, and let you know tomorrow.
 
Yes.

Don't Do That!

NEVER put anything in a powder container that didn't come out of the container in the first place!
Like when you empty your powder measure back in it.


Smokeless powder is not hydroscopic, and will not attract undue moisture in a sealed powder container.

They are even not sealed very good when you buy them if you noticed.

Who knows what a silica gel pack might do too powder.

If they thought it needed one?
The manufacture would have put one it it.

But they didn't, don't, never have, and never will.

rc


I'm not one to nitpick, especially with your posts RC, but a substance that attracts moisture isn't hydroscopic, it's hygroscopic.
 
I agree with rc. I haven't seen where it is recommended by the powder makers or in reloading manuals. Why add an unknown into the powder that may or may not effect it's stability?
 
I agree in not putting gel packs into a can of gunpowder.

The worst enemy of gunpowder is heat. The lifetime of gunpowder is reduced exponentially with increases in temperature. This chart came from a UN manual on ammunition inspection. Section 7.3 is well worth reading

Surveillance and in-service proof - the United Nations
http://www.un.org/disarmament/convar...Proof(V.1).pdf


Propellantdeteriorationyearsversustemperature_zps29357560.jpg

Exposure to water is bad, even though water is a polar covalent molecule, it acts ionic. All ionic compounds accelerate the breakdown of gunpowder. I think that may be a reason why gunpowder now comes in plastic cans, tin cans released rust (ferric oxide) into the powder and that accelerated powder breakdown. Water is in air, so it is best to keep gunpowder cans sealed.

Everyone wants their gunpowder to last forever but that is an irrational expectation. Federal says their ammunition has a ten year shelf life:

Federal Ammunition :
http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx
What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?
Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.
 
I don't know who in Federal came up with the ridiculous notion of a 10 year shelf life.

If that were the case, the military would be out of business, rotating large stocks out of the inventory after 10 years in storage. Silly. The shelf life of small arms ammo is actually indefinite. At the depot and in the field, samples are inspected periodically to ensure it meets specs. If it does the lot goes back into storage for another x number of years. Inspection intervals might be varied if severe storage conditions are experienced, but the same routine applies.

Some munitions items do have short shelf lives, usually 7 years. Examples are chaff and flares, and other pyrotechnics. But not ammo.

Please, anybody who buys the 10 year shelf life nonsense, if you've got any ammo that goes over the limit, let me know, I'll pay to have it shipped to me.
 
I don't know who in Federal came up with the ridiculous notion of a 10 year shelf life.

Federal is a for profit company and they are limiting their liability.

The shelf life of small arms ammo is actually indefinite.

Are you or where you an Ammunition Specialist or an Insensitive Munitions expert?

And why does gunpowder last indefinitely?
 
I was an Air Force Munitions Officer for 23 years.

Modern smokeless powder (not gunpowder!) is made to last. It's chemically very stable and given half decent storage conditions lasts a very long time. It's not unusual to read/hear about .45acp ammo from WWII being fired and performing just like new.
 
I've never used anything inside of the powder cans themselves, but I keep the powder cans in a 5 gallon bucket along with a can of damp-rid.
 
I am in real trouble if powder goes bad with time being the factor. I have WWII surplus ammo that I shoot regularly... some of it dated as old as 1938. It still goes bang every time and performs at expected velocities etc. Even dirty Russian surplus ammo seems fine after 70+ years on the shelf and I am confident that it was never stored in a climate controlled warehouse:)
 
I phoned Hogdgon and he said "Take it out. The powder is engineered with moisture content. If it loses it's moisture it will burn to hot and fast."

From the horses mouth.

I guess it's good to be wrong once in a while. I almost forgot what it feels like:)
 
I phoned Hogdgon and he said "Take it out. The powder is engineered with moisture content. If it loses it's moisture it will burn to hot and fast."

From the horses mouth.

I guess it's good to be wrong once in a while. I almost forgot what it feels like:)

You're not married, are you. ;)
 
I was an Air Force Munitions Officer for 23 years.

Modern smokeless powder (not gunpowder!) is made to last. It's chemically very stable and given half decent storage conditions lasts a very long time. It's not unusual to read/hear about .45acp ammo from WWII being fired and performing just like new.

I should not be surprised that you don’t provide evidence that you understand the basic chemistry of single, double or even, triple based propellants. After all, no one needs to understand EMF and electrolysis to drive an electric car. I did look up your job description at these URL’s: http://munitionsinsider.blogspot.com/search/label/Munitions Officer
And http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4_7/publication/cfetp21mx/cfetp21mx.pdf

To be an Air Munitions Officer you had to have a College degree, so good for you. I have no doubt you executed your job properly, performing administrative duties, following written procedures with criteria developed by someone else, keeping track of the number of items on your property book and filling out the proper invoices as things disappeared and reappeared. Without a doubt you were aware of “stock pile” reliability programs and “certifications” happening in the background but were not particularly interested in the results except as they affected you as “Go” and “No-Go” . I have met a number of people who understood that voids in rocket motors, as revealed by X-Rays, were undesirable, this was something bad that happens as the propellant collapses inside the binder, but they had no idea of why voids might be there in the first place. And, for their jobs, the why’s, and wherefores of chemistry, kinetics, and thermodynamics, as it relates to propellants, nice to know, but not necessary as long as they follow procedures written by people who do know.

Let me assure all, whether the smokeless propellant is single based, double based, aluminized or not, the fundamental molecule in the mix is nitrocellulose. Which is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound. How nitrocellulose is gelatinized and what it is gelatinized with, to form a single based propellant, is something you need to read about on your own. A goodly portion of the molecules in the mix are stabilizers to sop up the nitric acid gas that comes out of the propellant as it deteriorates. Heat accelerates that deterioration. When enough stabilizer is gone, the propellant is very dangerous to store, and risky to shoot. Hot, moist is probably the worst environment for propellants with Arctic Cold/dry being the best.

There are whole groups of Ammunition Specialists and Insensitive Munitions experts crawling, investigating, testing American stock piles. This is a field into itself but rest assured, they are discarding old ammunition that has met its shelf life. If they don’t, they risk the possibility of ammo dump explosions, and weapon blowup due to burn rate instability, as examples of worst case conditions.

Recently I wrote a long, non mathematical, just a little chemistry, on this very topic at Cast Boolits. Posters were wondering why they were having pressure and corrosion indications with surplus ammunition. The pictures are worth looking at which is why I am going to post the URL.

When milsurp goes bad


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?230264-When-milsurp-ammo-goes-bad
 
I have seen old milsurp ammo exactly like in the pics at the link. It happens. Storage conditions are critical for long life, and even in the best conditions, powder has an finite life.

I had a jug of N130 go bad in about 10 to 12 years. That was about 3 or 4 years ago. The jug of N133 that was next to it, and bought right at the same time, is still good. Seemed like it went bad overnight. If it had been loaded already I would not have known, and the ammo would have been deteriorating unseen.
 
I was in the Air Force Security Police in the Armory...

I am talking small arms armory, sidearms, rifles, shotguns, squad machine guns, etc...and I think the op is too... Not sure where the rocket motor discussion came about. anyway...

Our every day duty ammo was really old. Looked at least 20 years, chocolate brass and deep brown FMJ bullets. Dont know who was in charge of rotating that stock, but it went out the window and returned three times a day. The .38 rounds looked the worst. If you got shot by that stuff you would surely die of tetanus.

Few times airmen inadvertently discharged weapons, usually in the weapons clearing drum. Once or twice not in the drum. :cuss: Went bang each and every time.

Gawd I miss the 1980s
 
Wow! Quite the tirade here on THR. SlamFire1, where did you obtain your experience and expertise in the small arms ammo arena? By the way, that first link was written by an old colleague of mine. We were at different bases but had mostly the same jobs, often in SAC.

There are no groups of experts crawling around American stockpiles. As I stated, stocks are sampled at intervals specified by technical data, or as needed due to special situations. This is done in inspection facilities by trained and qualified inspectors who are part of the munitions career field. Occasionally enough problems are found in a given lot to warrant removal from the stockpile and destruction. This is the call of the particular ammo's item manager. There is no "insensitive munitions" in small arms ammo.

They don't discard old ammo that has reached its shelf life because small arms ammo, again, has an indefinite shelf life in the military. It is finite, but indefinite. As it passes periodic inspections, it's useful life keeps getting extended.

Walkalong, In the case of old milsurp ammo, this is stuff that's out of the control of the munitions "system" for some time, if it ever was in the system after manufacture. If in the system and if it had been exposed to high heat, etc., it would have been tested. If ammo doesn't actually perform properly, that is also reported through command channels to the item manager for evaluation.

I can't recall any instances of small arms ammo problems attributable to the powder. Most problems had to do with primer issues, e.g., missing, cocked or inverted. These were almost always caught during "receiving" inspections of new ammo.
 
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au_prospector,

They always did go bang, in the clearing barrel and at the range. Gnarly looking but worked. And that was often issued ammo, out of the control of the munitions inspection system. Just stored at issue points like the cops and OSI.
 
Yes Moxie I was at a Security Police issue point.
We received new ammunition when we were issued the 9mm Beretta and the .38 S&W Mod 15 disappeared along with its gnarly ammo.

I was in AFLC, didn't joke around with the SAC guys. They were way to serious.
 
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