Power Pistol Bark/Flash in 9mm... doesn't this mean the powders too slow?

[azrocks]

I keep reading post after post - here and elsewhere - on how beloved Power Pistol powder is in 9mm.

My first (and for the moment, last) experience with Power Pistol is that - from a 4" barrel - it was excessively loud, excessively flashy, and produced excessive recoil.

Aren't these all indications that the powder's still burning (significantly) as it exits the barrel? And if so, isn't this an indication that the powder is simply too slow for the application?

It would seem to me that the 'perfect' powder for achieving maximum velocity (which is what the Power Pistol lovers seem to be after) would be one that's pretty much used up just as the bullet exits the barrel. Am I not considering all the variables at play here?

After trying other powders, I've pretty much relegated my Power Pistol to loads I'll break out when I want to annoy shooters to either side of me. Or when I start loading for .357 mag.

What am I missing?

 

[ray15]

Alliant's move to address this concern was to introduce BE-86, which is reputed to be Power Pistol with a flash suppressant added. I'm not sure this is the entire story, but I do believe the burn rate of BE-86 is very similar to Power Pistol. The (2014) Alliant manual I have lists loads for both, but they do not use the same components. Nonetheless they produce nearly identical velocities for a given bullet weight, lending credence to the notion that the burn rate is if not identical very similar.

My point here is it would appear that Alliant's judgment is that this is the correct burn rate for 9mm. And given these are two of the very few powders to exceed 1200fps in a non +P 115gr. 9mm load, it's hard to disagree. Also note that Power Pistol is faster-burning than some popular 9mm powders that are less flashy, like CFE Pistol. So there's definitely a lot more than burn rate involved here.

 

[Rule3]

Alliant likes to change names around.

Power Pistol was originally Bullseye 84, Then they come out with BE 86??

Anyway PP is fine for 9mm, I use it all the time. It has a higher Nitro content which gives the flash and boom but the burn speed is what it is and good for a high pressure 9mm or 40 SE (and others) Not much different in burn than say Unique.

It leaves a very gray ash on the brass. Despite other posts you can use lower charges and it works just fine and is accurate. Depends on the gun and shooter.

 

[CZ9shooter]

The "side effects" that the OP mentions are just part of the variables involved with reloading. All powders have a different character.

PowerPistol is hard to beat for top end loads, especially in 9mm. If you are looking for run-of-the-mill plinking rounds, then yeah, there are probably better powders for that.

I use it for replicating +P type jacked ammo. In the past I have used it at lower charges, but I agree that is not well suited for it.

The most accurate handgun rounds I have ever experienced included a healthy dose of PowerPistol.

 

[Sunray]

4" 9mm's are kind of like that with any powder. Been using a very tame 3.5(I think) of Bullseye with a cast 121 grain bullet for eons. The 4.5 of Bullseye with a cast 230 out of a 5" 1911A1 is much more pleasant to shoot. The 9mm is louder but that's the barrel length. Even less than an inch can matter.
Power Pistol is made for "high performance" loads. It's also using more powder for slightly higher velocities than Bullseye. So it's going to be loud and flashy.
Anyway, recoil is basically about velocity and bullet weight in a given weight of pistol. Plus a certain amount of grip material. Mostly the pistol weight though. A 124 at 1125 fps out of a 1.5 pound pistol has 1.6 ft-lbs. more recoil than a 124 at 1157 fps out of a 2.2 pound pistol.

 

[Walkalong]

Power Pistol is flashy, just the way it is. The powder is completely burned long before it runs out of barrel.

 

[azrocks]

You guys are amazing. There's SOOOOO much I need to learn, and every question I post here I learn SOOOO much from. So from the bottom of my heart, and not just on this topic, thanks for the continuing education. I hope I don't sound like a dullard. I consider myself at least reasonably intelligent, but my lack of knowledge on the subject of reloading has me feeling pretty dull at times There seem to be so many variables at play it seems reloading to be more of an art than the science I'd like to distill it down to.

 

[LiveLife]

Power Pistol ... from a 4" barrel - it was excessively loud, excessively flashy, and produced excessive recoil.

Aren't these all indications that the powder's still burning (significantly) as it exits the barrel? And if so, isn't this an indication that the powder is simply too slow for the application?

It would seem to me that the 'perfect' powder for achieving maximum velocity (which is what the Power Pistol lovers seem to be after) would be one that's pretty much used up just as the bullet exits the barrel.

powder is completely burned long before it runs out of barrel.

As Walkalong posted, most pistol powders are burned within the first few inches of the barrel. Power Pistol has large muzzle flash because it does not have flash suppressant added like most other powders.

Many use slower burn rate powders for 9mm with good results like WSF, HS-6, AA #5, AutoComp, CFE Pistol, etc.

Alliant's move to address this concern was to introduce BE-86, which is reputed to be Power Pistol with a flash suppressant added.

According to Paul from Alliant/Vista Outdoor, BE-86 was not confirmed as Power Pistol with flash suppressant added rather different powder used in factory ammunition for decades and Alliant only recently made available in canister form for reloading - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/be-86.760289/page-7#post-9652697

Professional ballisticians have utilized this powder for almost 30 years, and we have produced millions of pounds of it since.

As a hint, perhaps try 45Auto 185gr jacketed, 9mm 124gr, 40S&W 165gr. It can also be used to push 147gr 9mm, but I prefer Power Pistol(R) for full power loads there. We have one large ammo manufacturer, that shall remain nameless, that uses BE-86 in their Gold Medal Match 45Auto 185gr.

Another application that BE-86 has worked really well is 38Spl+P. Medium power 357Mag is another, but you have figured that already. We had one large mfg that was using BE-86 in a 125grJHP duty load, and that surprised me, but the engineer for that product said he wanted 1350ft/sec, accuracy and low sd's, and BE-86 was best for that.

Thanks for trying our "new" canister pistol powder. Hopefully the supply issues let up soon and everyone can get what they want, when they want, and BE-86 will be readily available.
Shoot well,
Paul

 

[.308 Norma]

There seem to be so many variables at play it seems reloading to be more of an art than the science I'd like to distill it down to.

To me, it's both an art and a science. And that's why I love it.
I'm not a "reloader." I'm a "handloader."

 

[Rule3]

There seem to be so many variables at play it seems reloading to be more of an art than the science I'd like to distill it down to.

It is indeed both. It is more science and fact than art but there is some "art" involved. Also when you are on a forum there is also a lot of different views on things. With all the information out there one can get into information overload. As a new reloader I still recommend sticking to say one manual and use it like a cook book. It's good to have other manuals but then you get different load data,

Start with one cartridge at a time and master that. If you have a revolver start with 38 special or 357 mag any straight wall case. Even if you have a progressive press load one round at a time and be sure it's correct. JMHO

 

[hdwhit]

azrocks wrote:
It would seem to me that the 'perfect' powder for achieving maximum velocity (which is what the Power Pistol lovers seem to be after) would be one that's pretty much used up just as the bullet exits the barrel.

Your supposition is basically correct. The maximum efficiency (although not necessarily maximum velocity) is achieved with a load where the powder stops expanding just as the bullet leaves the muzzle. But what that means is that there is still considerable pressure behind the bullet as it exits the muzzle and that hot gas all has to go someplace which produces flash and noise.

 

[LiveLife]

There seem to be so many variables at play it seems reloading to be more of an art than the science I'd like to distill it down to.

Yes, there are many reloading variables which allows reloading to be pursued as a simple hobby to an OCD passion.

I do both.

I reload my general purpose range/plinking ammo with cheapest powder (Promo) and primer (Fiocchi) available with lowest cost bullets with less regard for powder charge/OAL variance.

But for more accurate match grade ammunition, I will resize and hand prime brass separately and use powders that meter better with greater regard for less than .1 gr powder charge and exact/less than .003" OAL variance for more consistent bullet seating depth.

For me, reloading is science which by following certain recipes and consistent reloading practice, can produce measurable and repeatable results. There are many "internet folk lore" that are perpetuated on forums and we have conducted many "myth busting" threads with the help of THR members to remove as much "mystery" of reloading and keep it objective and factual.

With reloading tools and check weights/pin gagues that allow us to measure to .001" and .1 gr:

- We don't have to guess at OAL/COL as we can precisely determine max OAL and working OAL.
- We don't have to estimate taper crimp amount as we can add .022" (average case wall thickness) to the diameter of bullet.
- We don't have to wonder where the powder charge "sweet spot" for accuracy is as we can conduct full powder work up.
- We don't have to ponder whether less gas leakage from longer OAL will produce smaller shot groups than higher neck tension from shorter OAL as we can incrementally decrease OAL by .005" to monitor accuracy trend.
- We don't have to contemplate which brand of powders or bullets produce smaller shot groups as we can conduct comparison range tests with optics.

By following the "science" of reloading, we can produce more consistent ammunition than factory which allows us to practice our "art" of shooting - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/#post-10428857

(Jump to 0.50 second mark of video for shooting demo)

 

[PO2Hammer]

I load mostly mid range 357 (158 @ 1000 fps). I've used HS-6, 4756, Universal, Unique and a few others, they all have their good qualities and bad, but when I tried Power Pistol I was shocked with the muzzle blast and apparent recoil of a load that was no more powerful than any of my other loads. Unique is far more pleasant to shoot, too bad it doesn't meter like PP.
I have a nasty case of tinnitus in both ears, so the Power Pistol is going to gather dust.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said, the flash/boom from Powder Pistol doesn't mean anything but Powder Pistol produces a lot of flash/boom. It's just the way that powder is. Hodgdon Longshot is another powder like that.

 

[Steve C]

Power Pistol is the commercial canister grade of the powder developed by Alliant for the US military government contract use in 9mm NATO ammunition. As such it works great for high velocity 9mm and .40 S&W as they are both small volume cases loaded to high pressure. I find it doesn't work well with low pressure cartridges like .38 spl or .45 acp. The powder delivered to commercial ammo manufacturers may have flash suppressors added by them, the powder sold to hand loaders doesn't appear to have any which is why its a bit flashy. If you want to duplicate military 9mm performance Power Pistol is one of the powders to use.

 

[rsrocket1]

When smokeless powder goes off, even if all the powder has ignited within the barrel, some other chemicals are formed or released such as Carbon Monoxide and Hydrogen. When the superheated gases contact oxygen outside the barrel, they ignite and form the "muzzle flash". Simple chemicals such as "salts" can suppress the flash (it was used in cannons in the past and similar techniques are used to reduce the flame signatures of missiles today).

So when you see a muzzle flash, it's not always because the powder isn't fully consumed. But it's fun when you're range blasting. Power Pistol and Blue Dot are great head turners in dimly lit ranges.

 

[vaalpens]

My first (and for the moment, last) experience with Power Pistol is that - from a 4" barrel - it was excessively loud, excessively flashy, and produced excessive recoil.

Don't give up on PowerPistol. I gave up on it early when I started reloading, then went back to it and now really likes it in all my calibers.

What did you load in 9mm that was so over the top?

My simple solution to your "excessive" problem is; keep using Power pistol, "excessively loud"-use better hearing protection, "excessively flashy"-use sunglasses or don't shoot indoors, "produced excessive recoil"-buy a gun that handles recoil better.

 

[azrocks]

I load mostly mid range 357 (158 @ 1000 fps). I've used HS-6, 4756, Universal, Unique and a few others, they all have their good qualities and bad, but when I tried Power Pistol I was shocked with the muzzle blast and apparent recoil of a load that was no more powerful than any of my other loads. Unique is far more pleasant to shoot, too bad it doesn't meter like PP.
I have a nasty case of tinnitus in both ears, so the Power Pistol is going to gather dust.

This was really my main gripe, but I didn't want to focus on it too much in this thread because - without a chrono - I simply couldn't back up the claim you just made. All I had to go off of was the manufacturers load data. My experience was that the perceived recoil of my Power Pistol loads was significantly greater than loads using Titegroup which - according to manufacturers data, should have been pushing the bullet at approximately the same speed.

This was my main impetus for temporarily abandoning the powder: I was starting at the very-low-end of the recommended charges, and even these had more recoil than factory loads which, by the numbers, should have easily exceeded them in velocity. I simply didn't feel comfortable going further without knowing where I was actually at. And for my needs - which are not +P - I didn't see any upside to PP excepting shock value.

 

[azrocks]

Don't give up on PowerPistol. I gave up on it early when I started reloading, then went back to it and now really likes it in all my calibers.

What did you load in 9mm that was so over the top?

124g PD FMJ, 1.142 OAL, 5.6 grains (starting load according to Speer) produced significantly more felt recoil than the exact same load using 4.1 grains Titegroup instead. Speer shows the former (5.6 PP) producing 1033fps, and the later (Titegroup) producing 1020 fps using .1 grain less powder than what I used for comparison (4.0 grains Tg). I also compared both to factory Federal ammo. PP had more felt recoil, TG had less.

I had made up a batch of loads up to 6.2 in PP, .2 grains shy of their max. By the time I reached 6.0 I was scared to keep going and broke down the remainder.

My simple solution to your "excessive" problem is; keep using Power pistol, "excessively loud"-use better hearing protection, "excessively flashy"-use sunglasses or don't shoot indoors, "produced excessive recoil"-buy a gun that handles recoil better.

I'm still laughing. Good stuff.

 

[.308 Norma]

As a new reloader I still recommend sticking to say one manual and use it like a cook book.

I completely agree with everything you said, Rule3. But there are different views about how to "use" a cook book. I do okay, not great, following a cook book to the letter. But my wife is a great cook, and she uses the recipes in her library of cook books as "prompts," or "suggestions" on how to prepare really great dishes.

 

[CZ9shooter]

If you ask me PowerPistol does not produce more recoil than powders like Titegroup, but a DIFFERENT recoil. Almost 45 like one might say. Pushy. With faster powders the recoil is a quick snap and is overwith immediately.

 

[lauderdale]

Don't give up on PowerPistol. I gave up on it early when I started reloading, then went back to it and now really likes it in all my calibers.

I gave up on it also early but have have probably 6#lbs. For .40 w/my MECH TECH upper and 40 to 9mm. glock lower gen.4 mod 23) on it (pistol caliber carbine) Oh heck nice! Think the jist is in BDS group project. W/and chrono @ under 1400 fps. rmr /hard plate.

 

[LiveLife]

You may have a point as we hold the notion that most pistol powders burn within first few inches of the chamber. And for 16"-17" carbine load testing I have been doing, bullets should be slowing down the last 10 inches or so of the barrel.

My preliminary comparison testing with fast vs slower burn rate powders has not produced definitive conclusion that favors slower burn rate powders producing more accurate carbine loads. Many will be surprised to hear that so far, 9mm 100 gr RMR Hardcore Match bullet pushed to around 1500 fps with fast burning Promo has produced lowest SD number and smallest 50 yard groups for me so far - This was not the result I was expecting and I am currently examining my testing process and ordered additional equipment to further reduce shooter input for pistol and carbine testing at 25/50 yards.

Yes, fast vs slow powder comparisons like IMR's new Target/Promo/W231-HP38 and BE-86/CFE Pistol/AutoComp are planned to myth bust powder burn rate notions. Based on my initial testing, IMR Target (another fast burning powder) has shown a lot of potential to produce accurate loads.

Personally, I think Power Pistol's burn rate is just fine for 9mm loads having shot WSF and HS-6 during early days of reloading before moving on to faster than W231/HP-38 burn rate powders. If BE-86 did not exist, I would consider Power Pistol for 9mm along with Herco (Don't laugh ) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-and-herco-for-jacketed-lead-plated-bullets.745656/

BUT ... BE-86 does exist and with flexible qualities of both Unique and Power Pistol with burn rate in between the two, I would reach for BE-86 over Power Pistol, especially with flash suppressant for smaller muzzle flash.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

BUT ... BE-86 does exist and with flexible qualities of both Unique and Power Pistol with burn rate in between the two, I would reach for BE-86 over Power Pistol, especially with flash suppressant for smaller muzzle flash.

So do I.

 

[Demi-human]

While I don't notice increased recoil, the excessive flash and noise is something I don't classify as negative attributes. I thoroughly enjoy our list of powders in this time. Something for everyone.