Pre-Flintlock?

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MedicMark

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Do any of you shoot any pre-flintlock weapons? If so, where did you purchase yours and are there any good "deals" out there?
 
Dixie Gun Works used to sell reproduction matchlocks, but I haven't checked their current catalog.
 
Wasn't there a gent that used to post here that built and hunted with match locks?
 
The guns that Middlesex Village and others sell are made in India. This doesn't necessarily mean anything on its own - many find them serviceable, shoot them regularly with both blanks and live rounds, and few have complaints about the sparking ability or durability of their locks from what I've heard and read. I've handled a few in person and quality ranges from pretty decent to not so great.
Still, it would pay you to do your own research. The barrels on them are usually made of tubing and the type of steel used isn't always stated. Some come without the vent drilled, meaning that they're not actually "guns." You could drill a vent on one and many do, but if the gun should have a catastrophic failure after that, who's at fault?
Just something to consider.

And be careful starting a discussion about them on any of the reenacting forums. Search instead. Starting a new discussion may well result in angry opinions and personal insults being flung around because for some reason some people take this very personally.
 
Getting Back to Middlesex, and crappy, dangerous, shoddily made, modestly priced, and overdone reproduction guns. (Which just happens to be my favorite kind of gun !!!)

They will, for a modest fee, prep, tune, and "proof" the guns for you before they ship them. I quote the term "proof" because, there is no official proofing house sanctioned by a department of the U.S. Government, as there are in other countries. But they will, test them, with a mild overload, which is better than nothing I guess. So, if your on the borderline, wondering to buy one, consider the optional proofing and tuning, they really are a modest fee for both.

Middlesex, occassionally will publish, on their web page, "Planned Futures", to test the waters, to see if the customer response warrants investing in developing a new model. (Thier guns are not stock off the shelf, are are custom built for them, to their specifications. The "pre-release" pics are always prototype guns, generally plainer and simpler than the production models will be when released.)

Here is one that is a planned future, one I plan to purchase as soon as it is available from them. It is a Wheel Lock Pistol, of unspecified caliber. I find the clean, simple and gracefull lines to be very lovely, an elegant piece in it's simplified prototype version.

You can call their ordering department, which is listed on their web page, and ask, when this or any gun will be available. It is also always a good idea to call them with any order, as they are a smaller outfit, and don't always have available stock to ship, so, call and ask if they have one in stock for you, and if you can reserve it, or pay by credit card right then, to insure timely shipment.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

PWL_right.jpg
 
<Heavy sigh>

But they will, test them, with a mild overload, which is better than nothing I guess
Click to expand...

Of course there is no mention in the post as to what the opinion is of a "mild overload"..., when in fact if one does some actual research of what a "proof load" is from an Italian or British proof house, (they are the same) it could be considered a "moderate" or perhaps merely a double charge of powder and ball. I have seen the figure for a .75 caliber musket as 160 grains of 2Fg and two 1 ounce ball..., not much past max recommended load.

Places that offer to proof the Indian guns use proof loads equal to that done in Italy or England. It does not guarantee that anything but the breech plug is done right. Barrels, especially thinner ones on muskets (any musket either Indian or Italian) can be burst if improperly cleaned, with a barrel obstruction, and improperly seated charge, etc.

You should NEVER buy a black powder flint or other type of gun that requires home drilling of the touch hole..., for it negates all liability from the maker or importer, as you have changed the gun from non-firing to firing. Always have them do it for you. If they don't offer it pre-drilled, don't buy it.

LD
 
If only it were so easy to negate liability. Some folks like to drill their own holes because the factory folks (Italians included) usually don't locate them properly.

I'm doing most of my own builds now with custom parts, but if I ever do get a factory built flinter again it will be an India-made one with no hole cut. I've had bad luck with the reliability of Italian guns.
 
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They will, for a modest fee, prep, tune, and "proof" the guns for you before they ship them. I quote the term "proof" because, there is no official proofing house sanctioned by a department of the U.S. Government, as there are in other countries. But they will, test them, with a mild overload, which is better than nothing I guess. So, if your on the borderline, wondering to buy one, consider the optional proofing and tuning, they really are a modest fee for both.
Click to expand...

It might be good enough for some. I've angered people with this before I understood how personal the discussion of Indian guns gets. It's not that I wouldn't trust the gunsmithing skills because anyone who can build a functional forged flintlock lock by hand has got some real skill. The thing that worries me is that there just doesn't seem to be any way to tell what kind of steel is being used in the barrel with many of them.

It's possible that if the steel isn't strong enough or well suited to the repeated stress of firing, it might stand up to the proof load but be weakened, only to fail catastrophically later.

Here in the US we don't have a proof house. But we do have lawyers and people lose lawsuits that they shouldn't every day. If barrels that are obviously sold as gun barrels started detonating someone would have serious problems... so I'm quite sure that the barrels made by outfits like Colerain or Longhammock are totally functional. I wouldn't be worried about using live loads in a modern US made barrel.
I wouldn't have a problem with an Indian gun (from any vendor) if I knew they were constructed to the same standards. But I don't know that. Even in the case of the Loyalist Arms guns, which seem quality to me and which reenactors I've asked speak highly of, this information isn't made clear. You'd think that if you were cranking out a cost-competitive, high-quality gun that's totally safe, and you knew there were doubts about the safety of your competitors' products, you'd be out there making it good and clear that your guns are made with a barrel of high quality steel machined from solid stock that was every bit as safe as a US made barrel, just made where the costs of labor are cheaper. Were it me, I'd provide all the specifications of said steel and barrels possible so that what I was saying could be independently verified. Transparency would be a primary concern.
They may very well last for thousands of rounds and never have a problem, but I'd like to be damn sure before I charge something with around 100 grains of FFg and a .70 some caliber round ball.

There seriously is a huge debate over the safety of these guns, which is sad in a way because different vendors aren't all using the same manufacturers in India. It's similar to lumping companies like Jennings and Freedom Arms together and just calling them "US made guns" even though the quality difference couldn't be farther apart.
But the debate goes on and on... in one case I've seen it go on for 26 pages on another forum and still there is no resolution or real conclusion reached.

It's up to each of us to research and make his or her own informed decision.
Personally, if I ever go that route, I've decided to look for a used one at the best possible price and have a new barrel machined to fit the existing stock and installed with the original Indian lock and hardware.
 
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Only shoot origional

I only shoot origional rifle & pistols. After being around for 100 years or more all of the bugs are out of the system, so I find them to be extreamly reliable. Also after 100+ years these are probley the best ones that survived and all of the junk/defective ones are long gone. Shoot only the best, tried and proven.
 
col.lemat--original MATCHLOCKS?! I'd be willing to fire a civil war era caplock in good condition with a light charge, but not a 300 year old matchlock. Plus I don't think they'd let me take it from the museum.
 
I think there is a guy on the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum who has rebuilt and competes with a couple of original matchlocks. I think one of them was the Japanese style with the "sawed-off" type of stock, although I understand that they were made that way originally. I know I read about him somewhere and think it was over there. Even if it wasn't, they have a pre-flintlock section. If you're interested in old style guns it's worth registering and taking a look both on there and on the www.frontierfolk.net.


Here's one that came up at initial glance, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the guy I'm thinking of. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/257594/

You might have to register to read threads, but I'm not sure. In either case, registration is free and there are lots of knowledgable guys on there. Some of them are cranky old dudes, but if you don't pick any fights you should be fine.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showforum.php?fid/2/
 
Loyalist Arms and Repairs typically carries some India pre-flint as well -- inspected products, good people and service.

Military Heritage/The Discriminating General -- IMO they sell "seconds." They know little about what they sell and have useless customer support in my experience. Think about how poor average customer service and the average India-made musket are. Now realize that Military Heritage's service and products are below that!!!
 
I have fired original wheellocks. There are small and neat ones that I have handled, but the ones I fired were military type, large and (to me) awkward. Still, they went "zzzBANG" all right and were reliable enough. I don't think I will carry one as a SD firearm, but I'll bet it would have a heckuva deterrent effect. I have fired one snaphaunce, but it is really no different from shooting a flintlock.

FWIW, a good flintlock is not slow at all, in spite of what some writers have said. One common test of shotgun qualilty in England was to fire the gun upside down. A good qualilty gun would fire before the powder had a chance to fall out of the pan. Needless to say, the crude modern reproductions can't come near that kind of craftsmanship.

Jim
 
A decent flintlock with a good sharp flint can still fire so fast that it seems instantaneous, provided it's primed properly and the vent is located in the right place. The thing that makes people think they are slow is when the vent is located too deep in the pan. The vent should be centered over the pan in a "sunrise" position toward the top of the pan. Having said that, not overpriming a gun with a low vent can still make it shoot really fast. My Bess, with the vent really low in the center of the pan, still fired very quickly with the pan primed correctly... just had to use the right combination.

Of course, a great many on this forum have much more experience than I do and already have a better understanding of this than I've ever had.
 
Well...

IMHO, short of building my own guns entirely from non-kitted parts, in essence assembling my own home-done "kit" from various suppliers of gun parts...

If I were seriously worried about the safety of a particular manufacturers barrel, and, I was "in-love" with a particular model...

What I would do is...

Replace the barrel and breech plug with one I did trust, that was reasonably close to the guns original barrel. Saving me the time, trouble, expense, and headache, of locating a working wheel lock, snaphaunce, dog-lock, or match lock mechanism, stock, trigger gaurd, trigger assembly, ramrod, and whatever decorative do-dads and what nots may be attached. Nice, safe, well made muzzle loader pistol barrels aren't all that expensive really, and any good machinist could modify it a tad this way or that, to resemble the original barrel as closely as possible without sacraficing safety.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
Elvin Warrior said:
Well...

IMHO, short of building my own guns entirely from non-kitted parts, in essence assembling my own home-done "kit" from various suppliers of gun parts...

If I were seriously worried about the safety of a particular manufacturers barrel, and, I was "in-love" with a particular model...

What I would do is...

Replace the barrel and breech plug with one I did trust, that was reasonably close to the guns original barrel. Saving me the time, trouble, expense, and headache, of locating a working wheel lock, snaphaunce, dog-lock, or match lock mechanism, stock, trigger gaurd, trigger assembly, ramrod, and whatever decorative do-dads and what nots may be attached. Nice, safe, well made muzzle loader pistol barrels aren't all that expensive really, and any good machinist could modify it a tad this way or that, to resemble the original barrel as closely as possible without sacraficing safety.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
Click to expand...

I've looked hard at Indian muskets, especially Loyalist Arms. I want to do F&I War and for that a 2nd Model Bess (such as those made by Pedersoli) is not correct. Long Land Besses would have had a different entry pipe, 4" more of barrel, different buttplate and side plate, and an earlier bananna shaped lock. Most would have shown up here with a wooden ramrod too. The colonies didn't get the best state of the art weapons because at the time, France had the largest army and the British feared a land invasion. The best weapons stayed there to defend the island while older stocks of "King's Pattern Muskets with Wooden Rammers" were sent here to arm English forces.
My dilemma has been that a custom Long Land Bess is prohibitively expensive. The best I could hope to pull it off for would have come in at over $1500, assuming assembly from a TRS kit. I'd pay that if I could afford it... but it's a lot to spend on such a gun.The only other option is the Indian guns, as offered by Loyalist Arms, for under $600. One plan I'm considering is getting one and assuring that the lock and furniture are all satisfactory, then having a barrel made to drop in to the existing stock as you suggest. There are makers who could make a barrel to virtually any dimension needed, so I think this would be possible. It would likely add $300 or so to the cost of the gun though... so I'd hope to find the gun used to start with.

It's not that I don't trust the craftsmanship. I just don't trust the materials and I don't trust the importers unwillingness to directly say what the barrels are made of.

Still, in spite of the cost, I'm planning to invest in a Chambers' kit before too long. It will likely end up being the most expensive gun I've ever owned.
 
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F&I war

Would that be a smooth bore musket for the time frame? If its a smooth bore thats about a $50 barrel fix max to the existing barrel.
I trust the steel more than their craftsmanship any day. I put my life behind all my builds + a three time normal loading on long arms.
 
col. lemat said:
Would that be a smooth bore musket for the time frame? If its a smooth bore thats about a $50 barrel fix max to the existing barrel.
I trust the steel more than their craftsmanship any day. I put my life behind all my builds + a three time normal loading on long arms.
Click to expand...

Probably a 1728 pattern Long Land Bess or a 1742 pattern Long Land would fit the widest range of personas. During the Seven Years War (F&I War for the part of it that was fought in the colonies) the British cleared out their existing stores of old British muskets as well as a lot of muskets of "Dutch" manufacture to make room for new pattern 1756 LLB's in their own stores, which they feared might be needed to repel a French invasion of Britain.
I am pretty sure there was a shipment of 10,000 stands of 1742 Besses (double bridled locks with wooden rammers) sent over that were divided among the colonies. According to the PA archives (and Of Sorts for Provincials), PA got 600 of them. AFAIK, about the only newly manufactured arms they sent over were about a thousand Militia and Marine muskets, which look a lot like a Second Model Bess with newer style lock and flat sideplate, except they have wooden ramrods and the buttplate was attached differently.
My knowledge on the subject is pretty limited right now, but I try to pay attention when others speak, read where I can, and track down as many primary sources as possible. If you want to know more, check out Of Sorts for Provincials from Track of the Wolf. It's the only good reference I have right now, but I'm currently trying to educate myself with other books.

I want to portray a militia member or provincial who brought his own gun, so that gives me a little latitude. My hope is to get a somewhat modified Chambers New England Fowler kit to build into my copy of one of the commercial muskets that were available at the time. This will give me a serviceable gun with a good lock (and one that's interchangeable with a replacement if needed) and a high-quality US made barrel. But it's not cheap. It's gonna be an investment...

I am curious what you can do for $50 to make a barrel serviceable.
To me, a barrel is a barrel. The company making it, such as Getz, Colerain, or Longhammock knows that it's going to end up being part of a gun. They plan for it. Maybe they even overengineer it a little. Unless you do something really stupid or entirely neglect it, it almost certainly isn't gonna blow up.
OTOH, a piece of mystery tubing isn't a barrel. Maybe it's trustworthy and maybe it isn't, but if it wasn't designed to contain the pressure generated by 100 grains of FFg pushing a .715 round ball, I am not comfortable just sticking my face behind it and hoping for the best, even if it passes proofing.

But that's just me...
As I said, this opinion has greatly angered some people in other online communities. To be fair, some have shot more rounds from Indian guns than I've shot out of all the muzzleloaders I've owned combined - and had no incidents. I don't think they're lying. Everyone should do his or her own research and make the choice that feels best.

My apologies to the OP though - didn't mean to sidetrack his thread. Hopefully this answers the good colonel's question.
 
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Wow,

The experiance, maturity, and shear wealth of information of the members here is just ASTOUNDING.

I am amazed by you guys !!!

At the risk of side-tracking this thread yet again...

I was a wonderin...

Does anyone out there know of an outfit or private smithie that is capable of making twisted barrels? They were never all that common, even back in the old days, probably because of the difficulty and expense of their making. And I have never seen a modern reproduction using that design, ever. I don't know how that old technigue would hold up in actual practice, but, they sure are pretty barrels, comming out with a multi-colored spiral pattern all up and down the barrel. Just Lovely...

Anyways, I was wondering if anyone knew if anyone out there still makes those?

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
Back to the OP...

Yes, I've shot matchlocks. They are hard to find. Hege used to make an excellent target matchlock. There's an outfit in France that made them - or used to, the link I had isn't working any more. And there are custom guns floating around. I wound up shooting an original Japanese matchlock pistol in the 2004 World Championships.

There really aren't any cheap options.
 
It might be good enough for some. The thing that worries me is that there just doesn't seem to be any way to tell what kind of steel is being used in the barrel with many of them.
Click to expand...

Ah but like an American Company a company in Canada which imports parts, and finishes assembly in Canada is liable to lawsuits. Buying direct from India or from a company based elsewhere that sells non functioning guns that the owner converts is not nearly at risk. Don't be fooled by mailing addresses either..., the question may be one of where is the importer officially located, and where is the actual maker geographically located if an accident occurs. Tough to serve papers outside of North America.

It's possible that if the steel isn't strong enough or well suited to the repeated stress of firing, it might stand up to the proof load but be weakened, only to fail catastrophically later.
Click to expand...

BUT this is true for guns actually tested in proof houses. So you might be of the opinion to accept nothing that isn't an American made barrel, and that is understandable. Where folks get torqued is when people, as mentioned above, lump all guns from a region together and call them all "pipe bombs". For the record, I have seen ONE yes ONE of the Indian source flintlocks burst a barrel. I have heard of several stories of Indian caplocks doing this, prior to these flintlocks ever coming to market, but nobody has been able to do more than say "I heard...., " so it's merely rumor. If more problems from the past come to light, they will need to specify which manufacturer made the barrel.

If only it were so easy to negate liability. Some folks like to drill their own holes because the factory folks (Italians included) usually don't locate them properly.
Click to expand...

Actually it IS that easy. Adjusting an existing touch hole is improving an already firing gun..., converting a non-firing replica to firing is CHANGING the factory model into something other than what it was when it left the manufacturer. They have no control over what the owner or the owner's gunsmith did..., so the owner or the smith are at fault..., a very tough row to hoe in court to prove otherwise.

LD
 
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They have no control over what the owner or the owner's gunsmith did..., so the owner or the smith are at fault..., a very tough row to hoe in court to prove otherwise.
Click to expand...

Drilling the flash hole matters to import/export laws. The tort of negligence doesn't work like that. Unless you're signing papers as part of the purchase that verify your understanding that the item is on no account to ever be fired, the fact that you drill the touch hole means little or nothing.

The bigger issue is whether you caused the KB by overloading, improper loading or failing to clean. This is what causes almost all black powder KB's. And such incidents can happen with the best proofed Italian barrels or even custom barrels. Since very load is a unique hand load, proving that the KB was due to defective steel rather than a user error is not going to be easy, and that's the real impediment to a suit. I'm not aware of any successful claims of that sort against a smoke pole importer or manufacturer. Thankfully in most cases the KB's happen without seriously maiming anyone. The fatal or very serious KB's I know of were with certain vintage bolt action rifles, because if the lugs sheer the bolt goes right back into your head. I remember one involving a rare Lee Navy straight pull years back.

Does anyone out there know of an outfit or private smithie that is capable of making twisted barrels?
Click to expand...

You mean Damascus steel barrels?
 
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