Preaching to the Choir, a rant

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Acera

Acera

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A little Gun History

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

---------------------------


Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.



----------------------------


Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

-----------------------------


Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

------------------------------


It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:


Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent


Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent


Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!


In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!



It will never happen here?



I bet the Aussies said that too.


_____________________________________________




While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.


There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.


You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.


Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.


Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!


The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.



With guns, we are 'citizens'.


Without them, we are 'subjects'.




(I know that a number of Aussies frequent this board, please let me know if the facts are true. The source I got these from is usually very reliable. Thanks)
 
As much as I agree with your sentiment, it doesn't do any of us any good as ammunition without the sources.

While we are looking it up, it may be a good idea to toss in some more regarding the deaths of political dissenters through the various civil wars of Africa. I read once an appalling number of unarmed civilians being killed in one of those wars in particular. For some reason, Sierra Leone comes to mind -- or it may have been Sudan.


Also:


Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Click to expand...


I've always heard the number "6 million" attributed to Nazi murders of Jews in WWII. This includes everything I think I have ever read, every class I attended, and every documentary on The Hitler -- err-- History Channel. Did I miss something?


-- John
 
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True... the reason I mention Africa's civil wars is because I believe it was addressed in Wayne LaPierre's book about how the populace was disarmed and then over the next several years, they were slaughtered to the tune of 700,000 or so. This occured through roughly the years of the Clinton Administration (for reference only-- no link to the administration)


As I was writing this, it just occured to me. The UN is the ones that are so interested halting global "illegal arms" traffic. Seems to me that an "illegal" global arm is one that is being used to oust some of those UN delegate's bosses.

There is ALWAYS more to the story than on the surface. I can look up the sources later, but I seem to remember reading that over 50% of the UN delegates who vote democratically in the UN come from countries where no form of democracy is allowed for citizens. Interesting...


-- John
 
JWarren said:
I've always heard the number "6 million" attributed to Nazi murders of Jews in WWII. This includes everything I think I have ever read, every class I attended, and every documentary on The Hitler -- err-- History Channel. Did I miss something?
Click to expand...

there were roughly 6 million jews killed, and another 6-7 million gypsies, gays and other minorities.
 
The source is an email that has been going around for years. It's certainly nothing original.
Click to expand...


Even so, it would be an excellent idea to have independant sources to back ourselves up. I like going into debates armed for bear if I can help it.

-- John
 
All these guys, including the two authors, agree:

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE
MURDER AND SUICIDE?

A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND
SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE

DON B. KATES* AND GARY MAUSER**

* Don B. Kates (LL.B., Yale, 1966) is an American criminologist and constitutional
lawyer associated with the Pacific Research Institute, San Francisco.

** Gary Mauser (Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1970) is a Canadian criminologist
and university professor at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC Canada.

We gratefully acknowledge the generous contributions of Professor Thomas B. Cole
(University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Social Medicine and Epidemiology);
Chief Superintendent Colin Greenwood (West Yorkshire Constabulary, ret.); C.B.
Kates; Abigail Kohn (University of Sydney, Law); David B. Kopel (Independence
Institute); Professor Timothy D. Lytton (Albany Law School); Professor William
Alex Pridemore (University of Oklahoma, Sociology); Professor Randolph Roth
(Ohio State University, History); Professor Thomas Velk (McGill University, Economics
and Chairman of the North American Studies Program); Professor Robert
Weisberg (Stanford Law School); and John Whitley (University of Adelaide, Economics).
Any merits of this paper reflect their advice and contributions; errors are
entirely ours.
Click to expand...


http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

The first 5-10 pages are a must read.
 
I don't believe this without sources. Frankly your numbers seem exaggerated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
Click to expand...

This sounds like you are trying to imply that had Jews in Germany been armed the Holocaust wouldn't have happened. Since that would be a silly thing to say I don't see how this would help your argument.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

---------------------------


Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.



----------------------------


Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------


Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

-----------------------------


Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
Click to expand...

All of this is silly in fact. Saying these people died because of a lack of gun control is nonsense.

Stick to the Australian crime statistics and get sources. Everything else just does more harm to your argument.
 
All of this is silly in fact. Saying these people died because of a lack of gun control is nonsense.
Click to expand...
this sentence doesnt make sense to me.

Stick to the Australian crime statistics and get sources. Everything else just does more harm to your argument.
Click to expand...
Respectfully disagree
 
This sounds like you are trying to imply that had Jews in Germany been armed the Holocaust wouldn't have happened. Since that would be a silly thing to say I don't see how this would help your argument.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that they would have been as easily rounded up and executed had they been armed and had the chutzpah to use those arms?
 
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north367.html
A well written and researched essay on at least one of the "tragedies" above written by Gary North over at Lew Rockwell.

A somewhat older essay or book report if you will, written back in '94, discussing Mr. Simkin's collective essays titled "Lethal Laws". For some reason, some Jews really really take genocide, er, "tragedies" of this sort, seriously. Sadly, others do not. In any case, it's always good to have some well researched, well written words to fall back upon whenever you should enter into discussion with an anti-rights activist who wish to curtail your... well, you know.
http://www.bigeye.com/guns.htm

Here's an enlightened opposing viewpoint I think, even if Kaimi doesn't take it too deep.
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2005/06/gun_control_dar.html
Growing up in Independence Missouri as I did, a member of a Mormon related church, I read the words that Missouri Governor Boggs is reported to have said concerning the LDS and their Danite Armies ("exterminate them all or drive them away") or words to that effect. It was probably only the fact that the Mormons were armed that stopped a true religious mass killing. Even being driven to Utah didn't stop future governmental meddling. Could be why so many of my LDS friends to this day appreciate the shooting sports and are very well set up for emergencies.
If reading US history is your thing, this well written essay on the LDS (I think they still called themselves the Church of Christ back then tho') during the 1830's (there's no preaching so don't freak about that) is worth a read. For a synopsis, scroll down to the para titled "Imprisonment of Church Leaders".
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Missouri.shtml
All this in a nation newly set up with a 1st Amendment that, gee whiz golly Wally, is supposed to allow some religious freedom (or lack thereof). (yeah, right)

I don't know diddly per se about Aussie gun laws and crime after the fact. I doubt mass killing will begin next Tuesday, because for some reason I really think that a lot of Aussie men probably have something up their sleeves, as it were, should need be. Nor do I think that they are capable of just lying down and taking it. Australians are a very hardy lot. They just have some sad little politicians.

Sounds like home in a way. Laws were made to be bent or broken, oft times by the government. Guns can only help those who decide to use them and no one really wins when government forces decide to strip you of your RKBA and or come acallin' with their own. That's a world of hurt where only the down and dirty who are armed to the teeth will survive. Sadly, something most of the European Jews were above back in the 1930's. You do know the Armenians killed in Turkey by the Ottomans were the educated ones in their society, right?

It is ofttimes the "less thans, or have nots", goaded by low class politicians, eliminating the "more thans, or haves" under the guise of equality demanding a level playing field, be it land/wealth, education, religion (in some cases) or tribal conflict. An old story. The parable of Cain taking out his brother, Abel comes to mind.

And even tho' it is preaching to the choir, there might be some young lurkers out there who really, really need to read and learn and form their own opinions on the matter and know why Jefferson and Madison et al believed, wrote and codified a certain right or two that some would destroy in a heartbeat if allowed.

It is interesting that when people write about genocides, they almost always neglect the big one. Can't see the forest for the trees maybe? Manifest Destiny sounds so... justifiably inevitable... I guess. Unless you're one of the few remaining Native American.

(I have got to quit these early morning long winded rambles & rants)
 
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:


Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent


Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent


Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!


In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!



It will never happen here?



I bet the Aussies said that too.
Click to expand...

Variants of that have been kicking around the internet for the past ten years, since the longarm buyback took place. It gets quoted breathlessly here roughly every month it seems. The figures are however spurious. Rather than go over it all again here's the last time it was discussed, and that thread includes links to snopes and to some of the real facts.

The reality is that well over a billion dollars has gone down the drain on the laws forced upon us by John "I hate guns" Howard, but with ten years' data the result is that these laws and that huge investment have had essentially no measurable effect at all, save perhaps in reducing the number of firearms reported stolen.

The best the proponents of these laws can say is that there have been no mass shootings since the buyback, but there again there have been none in New Zealand over the same time period (they'd had several previously) even though their laws were unchanged and remained roughly similar to our pre-buyback laws.

It is not unlikely that what stopped mass shootings here was the fact that Bryant didn't go out in a blaze of glory but instead was captured in a most unheroic manner, and revealed as a halfwit loser who'll spend the rest of his pathetic life locked in a box.
 
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