Pricing nfa

[KY DAN]

I have a opportunity to purchase a m2 50 bmg and a 1919a4.

Both items are on form 4s at the moment and the asking price is the same as if they were on form 3s ready to shop to my dealer.

Am i wrong to think when buying from a private party with form 4s the sell price is to be lower?

We are talking 60 grand for the package, I can find 1919s all day for less less than 25k and m2 50s seem to run around 35k all ready to ship and start the transfer process on my end. No time wasted, no risk encured, just a stream line process.

 

[AlexanderA]

Your fallacy is in thinking that the guns are "on" certain Forms. The Forms are transactional. The Form 4 is for a taxable transfer to or from an individual, while the Form 3 is for a tax-free transfer between SOT dealers.

I'm assuming that the seller is an individual in a different state from yourself. That means 2 taxable Form 4 transfers for each gun -- one from the seller to your in-state dealer, and one from the dealer to you. If you were in the same state as the seller, you could skip the dealer. The same would apply if the guns were C&R, and you had a C&R collector's license.

The pricing sounds reasonable in today's market. A lot depends on the particulars of the guns. Are mounts and accessories included? Original guns or sideplate rebuilds?

 

[KY DAN]

Your fallacy is in thinking that the guns are "on" certain Forms. The Forms are transactional. The Form 4 is for a taxable transfer to or from an individual, while the Form 3 is for a tax-free transfer between SOT dealers.

I'm assuming that the seller is an individual in a different state from yourself. That means 2 taxable Form 4 transfers for each gun -- one from the seller to your in-state dealer, and one from the dealer to you. If you were in the same state as the seller, you could skip the dealer. The same would apply if the guns were C&R, and you had a C&R collector's license.

The pricing sounds reasonable in today's market. A lot depends on the particulars of the guns. Are mounts and accessories included? Original guns or sideplate rebuilds?

I understand how the forms work, what I am getting at is...... F4 is my passion F3 is in dealer possession. There is no unnecessary wait when it is on a form 3 to start with. The seller wants a dealers price but I have to wait and I don't see that as a ok price.

I can buy any of the two from dealers across the USA for the price the seller has asked and by Friday next week they will be at my Sot dealer.

I have always been made to understand that an immediate transfer was worth more than a prolonged form 4 to form 3 then to form 4 to me.

 

[AlexanderA]

I can buy any of the two from dealers across the USA for the price the seller has asked and by Friday next week they will be at my Sot dealer.

I have always been made to understand that an immediate transfer was worth more than a prolonged form 4 to form 3 then to form 4 to me.

It doesn't work that way. A Form 3 dealer-to-dealer transfer still has to be approved, and that takes time (obviously less time than a Form 4 transfer). But, in any case, you're not going to avoid the final Form 4 transfer to you.

The pricing is really a non-issue. If you think the price to too high, just shop elsewhere. What you are proposing is not a negotiating point.

 

[dogtown tom]

I understand how the forms work,

No, you don't.

what I am getting at is...... F4 is my passion F3 is in dealer possession.

Huh?
This makes no sense whatsoever.

There is no unnecessary wait when it is on a form 3 to start with.

Again, as mentioned above, no NFA firearm is "on a form".
A Form 3 is a tax free transfer between FFL/SOT's.
A Form 4 is a tax paid transfer between two nonlicensees in the same state.
A Form 4 is a tax paid transfer from an FFL to a nonlicensee in his state.
A Form 4 is a tax paid transfer between two FFL's who are not SOT's.
A Form 4 is a tax paid transfer from a nonlicensee to an FFL or FFL/SOT in his state.

The seller wants a dealers price but I have to wait and I don't see that as a ok price.

How do you know what a "dealers price" is on two used military surplus firearms?

I can buy any of the two from dealers across the USA for the price the seller has asked and by Friday next week they will be at my Sot dealer.

They can't be shipped to your dealer until the transferor, (an FFL/SOT) has an approved Form 3 from ATF.

I have always been made to understand that an immediate transfer was worth more than a prolonged form 4 to form 3 then to form 4 to me.

"Immediate transfer"? What country are you in? 'Cause it sure as heck ain't the USA.
Whoever told you this shouldn't be consulted again about anything.

Here's what you are looking at:
NFA firearms in possession of an FFL in another state : He transfers to your FFL/SOT via a Form 3. Your FFL/SOT will transfer to you via a Form 4.
NFA firearms in possession of an FFL in your state : He will transfer to you via a Form 4.
NFA firearms in possession of a nonlicensee or FFL without SOT your state: He transfers to you via a Form 4.
NFA firearms in possession of a nonlicensee or FFL without SOT in another state: He transfers to your FFL/SOT via a Form 4. Your FFL/SOT will transfer to you via another Form 4. Yes, this means $400 in tax stamps and twice the wait. ATF does seem to make the first Form 4 transfer faster, but its not anywhere as fast as a Form 3.

If you are not an FFL/SOT no Form 3 transfer will be approved because those are tax free transfers between FFL's who have paid their yearly Special Occupational Tax.

 

[Havok7416]

I understand how the forms work, what I am getting at is...... F4 is my passion F3 is in dealer possession. There is no unnecessary wait when it is on a form 3 to start with. The seller wants a dealers price but I have to wait and I don't see that as a ok price.

I can buy any of the two from dealers across the USA for the price the seller has asked and by Friday next week they will be at my Sot dealer.

I have always been made to understand that an immediate transfer was worth more than a prolonged form 4 to form 3 then to form 4 to me.

NFA items don't "sit" on or attach to a given form. Form 3 is dealer-to-dealer. Form 4 is a transfer from a dealer to a private individual/trust. There are several other forms, none of which apply here. There is no provision in the regs for an "immediate transfer" of an NFA item directly between individuals.

Typically a Form 3 takes a few weeks to be approved. Once your NFA item gets to your dealer you can submit your Form 4 and the long wait begins.

 

[KY DAN]

I haven't misunderstood how the forms work, I understand completely the forms are not an identity of the item only a transfer....

I have not had a machinegun, silencer, or destructive device that was transfered via form 3 that was not at my dealers within 7 days this maybe luck idk.

Either way the prices this guy wants is the same as dealers with the item in stock and ready to ship. I don't see the point in buying from an individual when I can pay the same money are buy from a dealer and expect no issues and cut out any unnecessary time.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Without getting into useless word-parsing, an NFA item not in a dealer's inventory will require an additional Form 4 transfer to a dealer in the owner's state, a Form 3 transfer to a dealer in the buyer's state, and a Form 4 transfer to the final buyer. Form 4 transfers to an SOT dealer tend to go much faster than to an individual - weeks, not months. However, I would expect a lower purchase price for the time, inconvenience, and added Form 4 transfer tax.

 

[AlexanderA]

Without getting into useless word-parsing, an NFA item not in a dealer's inventory will require an additional Form 4 transfer to a dealer in the owner's state, a Form 3 transfer to a dealer in the buyer's state, and a Form 4 transfer to the final buyer.

This is almost correct, but not quite. Taking your scenario in which non-licensed individuals in different states want to transfer an NFA item from one to the other, only one FFL/SOT dealer (in the recipent's home state) needs to be involved. (That's because an FFL/SOT dealer can receive from individuals or dealers in any state.) Therefore, there would be one tax-paid Form 4 transfer from the out-of-state individual seller to the dealer in the buyer's home state, and then another tax-paid Form 4 transfer from the dealer to the buyer. No Form 3 involved.

If we're talking about original Browning guns that are at least 50 years old, the best thing to do would be for the buyer to get an 03 FFL Collector's License. Then the transfer can be made directly from the seller to the buyer, with only one tax-paid Form 4 required. No SOT dealer would need to be involved, and the waiting period would be significantly reduced. IMO, this is one case in which a Collector's License is really worth it.

However, I would expect a lower purchase price for the time, inconvenience, and added Form 4 transfer tax.

That would not be a reasonable expectation. In today's market, long waits for transfer approvals are a given. Besides, a $200 tax more or less is insignificant compared to the price of the gun.

 

[dogtown tom]

Form 3 is dealer-to-dealer.

Nope.

Form 4 is a transfer from a dealer to a private individual/trust.

Or to another dealer who does not hold an SOT.

 

[dogtown tom]

I haven't misunderstood how the forms work,

Yet your OP is riddled with misunderstanding.

I have not had a machinegun, silencer, or destructive device that was transfered via form 3 that was not at my dealers within 7 days this maybe luck idk.

It's not untypical for an eForm 3 to be approved within a couple of days, but paper Form 3's may take 2-3 weeks before approval and return. Not all FFL/SOT's do eForms.

Either way the prices this guy wants is the same as dealers with the item in stock and ready to ship. I don't see the point in buying from an individual when I can pay the same money are buy from a dealer and expect no issues and cut out any unnecessary time.

So........why start this thread?

You assume the guns are in identical condition. Unless you view them in person you are taking the word of the seller. They are military surplus firearms, decades old. What on earth gives you the idea that the ones the dealer is selling is better than the ones for sale by the nonlicensee?
For the $$$$ involved in this purchase I would fly out and check them out myself.

 

[KY DAN]

Yet your OP is riddled with misunderstanding.


It's not untypical for an eForm 3 to be approved within a couple of days, but paper Form 3's may take 2-3 weeks before approval and return. Not all FFL/SOT's do eForms.


So........why start this thread?

You assume the guns are in identical condition. Unless you view them in person you are taking the word of the seller. They are military surplus firearms, decades old. What on earth gives you the idea that the ones the dealer is selling is better than the ones for sale by the nonlicensee?
For the $$$$ involved in this purchase I would fly out and check them out myself.

You know what Tom just forget it, I messed this thread up and your a expert with words so let's just leave it at that and let this thread die.

Mods please close and lock this no longer serves a purpose to anyone on this forum.