Primer Leaked

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troyheckman

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Had my first pierced primer after loading roughly 1000 rounds. I am not able to post pictures right now, but the primer had a pinhole right at the edge, which leaked enough to etch a small divot in my rifles bolt face. So I was wondering if I should check for something specifically to keep this from happening in the future. Here's the specs:

270 Win

Winchester LR Primer
LOT# DNL837G

Federal Brass
6th reload resized after each firing, I scrap the brass if a primer seats too easily

58.6gr. of H4831SC
Avg. velocity is 2880fps, this is a moderate load so I don't think pressure is an issue with the primer failing.

Hornady 130gr interlock bullet

When I fired the shot I didn't notice any excess recoil or gas escaping. I didn't even notice the issue until I put the the brass back into my box. Just trying to figure out what went wrong before it happens again and etches the bolt face even more. Thanks in advance for any help.
 
When I've had a primer pierce it was right where the firing pin hit. I had a primer fail and lead around the rim as you described and in that instance it was an obvious manufacturing defect in the primer material being extra thin as it didn't even ignight the powder and all the "flash" came out the back but in that case I was shooting a revolver.

Usually when the pressure begins to get high I've had primers leak around the entire rim.

I think in your case the primer was defective. You can expect to run across a defect once and a while, esp after loading many thousands or rounds.
 
Was the primer flattened or did it flow at all?

Like said above, it's the firing pin that pierces the primer so0 I'm not sure you actually got a pierced primer. It may have a hole in it but it's technically not pierced. A true pierced primer is caused by excessive pressure, do you have any other signs of overpressure?
 
Winchester did a product change in 1999 and, in my opinion, ruined their rifle primers for me. Prior to 1999 the primers had a nickel plating then it disappeared. So I called Winchester to find out what this change has done to primer sensititivity. Per telephone conversation with Mr. Chris Huseman at Winchester Group, Olin Corporation 618-258-3565, the old WLR primer had a zinc plating on the cup. Mr. Huseman said the material was zinc, even though I thought it was nickel and I am going to call it nickel. Anyway, Winchester removed that plating, with other changes, to make their primers more sensitive. The product change was specifically targeted to “combat light firing pin hits and off center strikes.”

I told them more sensitive primers were a bad idea in semi automatic mechanisms as more the shooter was more likely to have slamfires.

I shot tens of thousands of nickel WSR without a problem, but I had purchased a sheaf of new brass colored WSR. This primers pierced at loads that never bothered the old WSR. I kept on cutting loads, trying to stop the dishing of AR15 firing pins that happens when the primer pierces. It took a powder reduction of 1.5 to 2 grains in a .223 case to stop the primer piercing, and along the way, I had a handful of ruined firing pins.

If you have these thin skinned WLR and they are piercing, cut your load. That is all you can do.

I do not recommend using the brass WLR in semi autos as there are reports of the things slamfiring in Garands. This is a shame as the nickel plated WLR were a great service rifle primer.

This is a picture of a cartridge fired in Highpower competition. This is after the match and my Bud brought this over to examine. He had changed to brass WSR and they were piercing. We figured out it was the primer anvil sticking out through that hole!

CroppedGoodrearcaseshotDSCN6127.jpg


CroppedRearcaseontopfiringpinlarger.jpg
 
the primer had a pinhole right at the edge,
Click to expand...
Edge of the fiing pin strike? Or like in this photo? Defective primer or gas leaking between the primer & case. Mine were defective Rem. 9 1/2 primers, as it happened with light loads of cast bullets also. All brands may do it.
joe1944usa
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I have experienced a lot of pin holes on the edge of pistol primers, but it was caused by me, with very hot loads.
 
Pierced primers, number one answer! Weak firing pin spring.

My firing pins crush the primer, the primer ignites, pressure builds up, the pressure forces the crush primer to conform to the protruding firing pin. if the pressure of the firing pin spring is exceeded by the pressure inside the primer the firing pin is pushed back, and then? a hole appears in the primer. There are warnings, then there are those that have exemptions.

Then there is the etching of the bolt face when gas escapes around the primer, number one cause? Too much case travel, I am the fan of cutting down on case travel, first I determine the length of the chamber then I determine the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder, cutting down on case travel reduces primer travel, meaning the primer can unseat and reseat.

Etching the face of the bolt with hot high pressure metal cutting gas: If escaping gas etched your bolt face and the gas escaped between the primer pocket and primer there should be evidence of metal cutting/etching on the primer and or primer pocket (both?).

I am sure you listed the receiver design, make and model and I missed it, a lot of space is used up needlessly on reloading forums describing a problem some receiver designs do not have then the problem is compounded by the ideal a case stretches alike in all rifles.

Again, case travel is not a problem I have to deal with unless I choose to, there is a thread about a DP bolt in a 303 British rifle, no one has notice the bolt face has been cut to remove etching caused by hot high pressure metal cutting gas to escaping around the primer, again, the etching is caused by escaping gas when the primer unseats, MEANING! the case was doing too much traveling, the traveling caused the primer to run like #&% to keep up.

You have one event, not 1,000. I would suggest you examine the one case for a crack in the case head or a reason for the primer to leak.

F. Guffey
 
I guess I should have been more clear, it wasn't a pierced primer where the firing pin hit. It looks identical to the pic that 243winxb posted. There were no signs of pressure (easy bolt lift, no primer flow into firing pin hole, primer still had rounded edges, etc.). So i guess it was just a manufacturing flaw. Has anyone had experience getting Winchester to reimburse them after something like this happens, or is it just par for the course to have occasional defects?
 
It looks identical to the pic that 243winxb posted.
Click to expand...

Then you didn't have a pierced primer.

You had a blown primer.
It's usually high pressure that causes that.

Be on the lookout for loose primer pockets.

rc
 
My firing pins crush the primer, the primer ignites, pressure builds up, the pressure forces the crush primer to conform to the protruding firing pin. if the pressure of the firing pin spring is exceeded by the pressure inside the primer the firing pin is pushed back, and then? a hole appears in the primer. There are warnings, then there are those that have exemptions.
Click to expand...

I noticed that my 9mm guns experience pierced primers with Remington 1 1/2 primers in standard loads. Starting loads even. These are newer guns with good FP springs.

Could you clarify? The FP spring pushes the FP away from the primer. The hammer spring is what pushes the FP against the primer during ignition.
 
There was a thread here a couple months back detailing the same problem with Win LPP loaded in R-P brass (which has a relatively large bevel at the primer pocket mouth). Def does sound like it's related to their change in primer cup material.

As for Remmy 1 1/2's, Remington explicitly states that these primers are not to be used in high pressure cartriges such as .357 magnum or .40SW. They know the cups aren't strong enough for those cartridges. Since 9mm is loaded to the exact same pressures as .40SW, and 9mm+P is loaded higher, yet, it would seem obvious that these shouldn't be used for 9mm.
 
“270 Win

Winchester LR Primer
LOT# DNL837G

Federal Brass
6th reload resized after each firing, I scrap the brass if a primer seats too easily”

Then:

“I guess I should have been more clear, it wasn't a pierced primer where the firing pin hit. It looks identical to the pic that 243winxb posted. There were no signs of pressure (easy bolt lift, no primer flow into firing pin hole, primer still had rounded edges, etc.). So i guess it was just a manufacturing flaw. Has anyone had experience getting Winchester to reimburse them after something like this happens, or is it just par for the course to have occasional defects?”

There is no law against reloading components, the norm is to blame components for failures, as GlOOB pointed out, it is in the book.

“Has anyone had experience getting Winchester to reimburse them after something like this happens, or is it just par for the course to have occasional defects?”

I had a lot of trouble with Winchester, I purchased a Model 70 300 Win Mag with the ugliest chamber, they thought I was difficult when we started, before we were finished they thought I was impossible, all I wanted was a chamber that fit my dies or Winchester dies that fit their chamber. or a bolt that would fit my Winchester barrels, 270 W, 30/06 etc..

Par for the course is a reloader missing something or not accepting responsibility.

“6th reload resized after each firing”

I am not in mortal combat with reloading, finding a problem after I pull the trigger is all on me.

F. Guffey
 
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First off, 58.6 grains is not a moderate load. 60.0 is max for that 130 gr. bullet and minimum is 54.0 grains, so you are only 1.4 grs. away from maximum, which is a compressed charge with that powder. So it is possible you are exceeding the pressure threshold with those prinmers, and or brass life. I load a bunch of .270 and have been for decades, and in my opinion you are reaching the limit with those components.

GS
 
270 Win

Winchester LR Primer
LOT# DNL837G

Federal Brass

918v, it is too late to get your money back? Seems someone asked me the same question about the M1, he knew everything there was to know about the M1 Garand, he has not been civil to me since. Troyheckman said he had a 270, I did not assume he was shooting a slide action like my 1911s or P series Rugers, when I pull the trigger on a slide action anything it is up to the firing pin to get ready for the short ride of its little life, I do not worry about the firing pin being reseated, in fact I never check, I assume the fast ride of the slide to the rear and sudden stop prevents the firing pin from leaving the primer until the case is kicked out.

A friend built 1911s, one won the the big contest, long story, after the pistol was returned to him he inserted a round into the magazine, released the slide and then put a hole in the roof, he called another friend, he did the same thing, now with two holes in the roof they decided slamming a round into the barrel was a bad habit, his 1911 had a return spring on his firing pin. They cleaned the firing pin and freed up the spring, later I cleaned the pistol.

F. Guffey

If I was curious I would remove the anvil from a primer, seat the primer in a case, chamber the case then pull the trigger, after pulling the trigger I would eject the case and examine the primer for a dent, then I would compare the dent on the inert primer with the primer dent from a fired case.
 
Once....

I had one blow, creating the very same tiny hole at the circumference, albeit, a bit smaller hole than the one pictured (by about 25% from what I remember). The hole looked like someone pierced the very edge of the primer with a common pin, or needle, that is how small it was. I do recall there being a radius left around the perimeter, not a completely flattened primer edge.

Those loads of mine were about middle of the road, not hot loads. This was some time ago, so I cannot recall all the details.
 
happened with light loads of cast bullets also
Click to expand...

You can get overpressure with both very light loads or hot loads. You need to stay within the guide lines of your loading data!!!!!

243 it is hard to tell, but from the picture you posted, it does look like the firing pin did pierce the primer. This can also happen from the primer being seated too high in the primer pocket or a loose primer pocket. I know it is hindsight, but no way should that case have been used, the deformed primer pocket is not because the primer blew, but because someone swaged it inproperly.

Just how I see it.
Jim
 
Change to a different primer brand. If that doesn't help......
Change the brass. If that doesn't help....
Change to a different powder. If that doesn't help.....
Check the head space.
 
Troyheckman, then there is the Shadow Syndrome, years ago the term “I do not know” was not as common as “Who Knows?” :)

Cleaning premier pockets, there are those that do not, I believe that is a bad habit, it is possible have what most believe is a defective primer based on the results, a pin hole at the edge of the primer caused by the folding of the primer when seated and or dirt. The folded primer edge allows hot high pressure metal cutting gas to escape, the edge of the primer gets cut, then the pressure inside the primer flattens the primer cup against the primer pocket wall.

Rather than ask the question “Who Knows”, everyone jumps to the conclusion, ‘DEFECT’! The pin hole does not appear very often, companies that manufacture primers have to consider the large number of primers that are installed every year and then think about the possibility of a primer being installed in a primer pocket with a folded cup.

Excessive chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber does not cause pin holes, when the primer unseats hot high pressure metal cutting gas escapes around the perimeter of the primer, this is evidenced by a dark ring on the face of the bolt (at first) then progresses to a bolt face with an etched ring. When the case is ejected there is little to no evidence the primer backed out of the primer pocket (the Shadow has another theory), but, again, Who Knows.

I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel, I determine the length of the chamber first from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, I could say ‘datum’, not a problem but none of my chambers, dies and cases come with datums, I have to furnish them, again, I collect datums, I make datums and I purchase datums, the datums I purchase are always disguised as being something else.



F. Guffey
 
A primer that fails at the shoulder of the primer is likely defective.
This primer damaged your rifle. No telling how much more damage the rest of the batch will cause.
Because of the nature of this failure, I would be very much concerned about the gases venting back
into my face. Modern firearms are fairly well-designed to prevent such a thing. But, given the price of
a worst-case outcome, I would scrap all the suspect components before I would risk it.

You might want to talk to the manufacturer about replacing your damaged bolt. The manufacturer will
want a sample of your ammo. So, don't dump all of it down the outhhouse until you hear from them.


Large rifle primers are generally all the same thickness - irrespective of whether they are magnum or not.

Small rifle primer "standard" size is thinner than magnum.

primerthicknesschart.jpg
 
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A little on the mild side. All primers show flow into othe firing pin hole on this rifle. I think the hole is a little oversized or the pin a little undersized.

Load was 75.5 gr of H1000 & 190 gr smk w/ WLR primer and was just loaded to get a few rds downrange to confirm rough zero. Typical load was Win Brass, WLR-M primer and more H1000. I started using CCI250's this weekend.
 
"It looks identical to the pic that 243winxb posted."

Then it's a primer defect. Primer makers buy brass in huge rolls of sheet metal and stamp the cups out of that. The fault is from the metal suppliers, the primer makers can monitor the thickness as it runs but they have on way of detecting soft places or trash inclusions below the surface. Such defects aren't really common but are much more frequent than we realize because the defects only show up at the roll of the cup or under the firing pin. And even then it rarely blows out unless pressures are at least close to normal rifle max but such blow outs don't tell us the load is excessive.

IF you're lucky you may take that case and primer to your dealer and get a swap for the unused primers, may as well get the same brand but a different lot because all makers see it from time to time. If you can't swap 'em just religate the rest of that lot of primers to lower pressure loads such as .30-30 or .35 Remington and you should be okay.

A 'blown primer' refers to the case head and primer pocket expanding sufficently for the whole primer to fall out when you open the action; a blown primer IS proof of a very hot load! Long firing pins and/or weak firing pin springs can result in pierced - or 'blanked' - primers even when the cups are good and pressures are modest.

The damage to your bolt face is cosmetic, the pit is in a place that doesn't support primers anyway so it won't affect the safe use of your rifle.
 
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Thanks for the answers, I tried calling Winchester but no luck. Can't say that I blame them, for all they know it was my fault. So all I'm out is the the 20ish primers left in that batch and some cosmetic damage on my bolt, not too bad considering the money I've saved on ammo. I'm switching to Winchester brass here soon so I may switch primer's as well, since I'll have to work up a new load anyways. I still maintain that this was a moderate load and it was not caused by overpressure. My velocity was 2880fps. Hodgdon lists the velocity at 2843-3019 for min to max loads. So while my powder charge may be above moderate, the velocity is relatively low but still within book loads.

I hope it doesn't seem like I was trying to place blame on Winchester earlier, I accept all responsibility with my reloads. Even if it was a defect w/ the primer, it ultimately is my responsibility and it's my rifle that was damaged.

Fguffey, I'd never thought of dirty primer pockets causing it. What you said about the metal rolling makes sense. I'll add that to my brass prep process in the future.
 
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