Primers, primers...

[BigRedBowtie]

I am fairly new to reloading, I'm working on a single stage and feel I have the process down, but I'm just getting into working up "my" loads. So far all I've done is 38/357, as I understand the to be easy calibers to learn on. I'm confident I've got the process down, but I still have much to learn about the finer nuances of handloading.
My first powder purchase was Hogdon Universal, as it was the only powder that was listed in Speer 13 for 38 and 357, and in stock at gander mountain at the time. The guy in the gunsmithing shop there seemed an avid handloader and was willing to help, and recommended magnum primers. I bought magnum primers.
My starting load was a .38 Special loaded with a 158g speer JHP over 4.2g of H. Universal with a CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum primer. 4.2g is shown as the minimum for this bullet cartridge. I crept up on and achieved the max .38 load of 4.6g, then into .38+P with 4.7g. No signs of pressure.
I then hopped into loading .357s. Started with 6.5g, 6.6g... no problems. I... ... ... uh-oh. This is real-time typing here, fellas. Shoot- I misread my manual and I now know the answer to my own question. I looked at the 125g load... which shows 7.5 as the minimum. I loaded to 7.5g last night and got a few flat primers and sticky extractions today. In my posting research, I now see that the max for a 158g slug is 7.3....

Well, now that I have all this typed out, I might as well ask the original question anyway. How much, if any, difference in pressures is created by the change between standard/magnum primers? Go easy on me about the misread of my manual... I fully understand the gravity of such a mistake, and it will not happen again- I promise.

Also, what's the deal with the 45 Auto "NT" cases? Is there anything that requires special attention when reloading these small-primed cases?

 

[HSMITH]

There is a BIG difference when loading a powder like Universal. Universal is position insensitive and lights up well, meaning that it doesn't matter where the powder is in the case and you don't need a lot of fire to get it lit. Magnum primers are not needed OR desired with Universal. You can probably go up a full half grain before you see pressure signs if you use normal non-mag primers, but in the interest of safety you need to start over from square one or two. Definately don't start on a max charge, but you can start halfway up from starting to max loads with reasonable certainty that your loads will be safe.

Throw those NT out unless you have a BIG batch of them. When you load 45 acp there is no sound reason to have two different primer sizes or recipes.

 

[Black Snowman]

You picked a great round to start loading in because if you screw up a hot .38 loading you aren't likely to damage a 357 gun with it. I started loading .40 S&W which is much less forgiving and used, and still use, Universal to load it.

Only pressure signs I have ever seen in .40 S&W were in my early days when loading light target loads with 165 grain bullets. I ran out of standard primers and so subtitued magnums. I figured since they were light loads and lightish bullets I should be OK. But I got noticable case bulge in my Glock. So I went from barely cycle the gun reliably light loads to over pressure just by switching primers.

Now in a much larger case like the .357 magnum and in a much more supported revolver cylinder you're not likely to run into as many problems although you are likely still over pressure. Never use magnum primers unless it specifies them in the loading manual or you're willing to tread in unknown waters. Not recommended if you're still in your early stages and especially if you don't have a chronograph yet.

I recommend a chronograph highly as without it you're completely guessing at the final velcoties of your rounds and if it's way off from your estimates it can help point out potential trouble before it becomes dangerous.

YMMV and all that rot but I think many will agree it's sound advice.

 

[Ala Dan]

Also, you picked my favorite handgun caliber powder;
as I use Hodgdon's Universal Clay's for a multitude of
caliber's, cuz its real easy to work with and meters
well through my RCBS "Uniflow" powder measure.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[BigRedBowtie]

chrono... yeah, I know I should, but I'm still trickling EVERY CHARGE into the scale with a spoon. You actually get good at it after a while, but let's just say that a powder measure is coming in the near future. I'm not handloading for supreme accuracy yet, as any load I put together at this point can shoot better than me or my wife, but more the economics of practicing more for the same amount of dough.

There is a BIG difference when loading a powder like Universal. Universal is position insensitive and lights up well, meaning that it doesn't matter where the powder is in the case and you don't need a lot of fire to get it lit. Magnum primers are not needed OR desired with Universal.

This is great information! How do you learn about the properties of one powder vs another? How do you know whether one is 'quicker' than another? Where do you find out ahead of time that powder "A" is clean, while powder "B" is like using coal as a propellant? How do you learn that H. Univ. is position insensitive and "Bob's Handgun Go-Powder" isn't? Is there a resource that ranks these somewhere? Did I miss it in my manual? For instance, the H. Univ. makes a nice lil' muzzle flash in my wife's 3" SP-101, but puffs out a significant cloud of smoke when fired from a 6" GP-100. I understand that the propellant has had more time in a longer pipe to complete combustion, so no muzzle flash, but why the cloud of residue? Does this tell me anything about my load, or just that it's a different gun, shut up and don't worry about it?

Thanks alot- BigRed

 

[HSMITH]

Well, a good part of knowing the properties of a particular powder comes from reading the propaganda the manufacturer provides, reading loading manuals, talking to other shooters, THE #1 source is buying it and trying it to see how it works for you. Pick up a can each payday or something like that, or hook up with a loading/shooting buddy and split a pound now and then so you can both try something new with little expense and leftover powder. It is easy to accumulate 50 pounds of powder if you are doing it on your own, trust me! Popping a question up on here often yields good results also from people that have tried the combo you are considering or something very close.

For relative burning rates ALL quality loading manuals have them included. There is also an online version HERE provided by our friend John K, who is also a member here on THR. Thanks John!!

The 'smoke' from your 6" gun is actually ash, the UC burns so completely that it makes a superfine ash, you won't see it in the SP because it hasn't burned that completely yet. If you look in the SP you can probably see pieces of ash in the barrel, but you won't see them in the 6" gun as it will just have a hazy looking coating in the barrel.

Never just shut up and don't worry about it, if you do you will stop learning!!

Testing new loads and combinations is fun, reloading sucks. Balance it out by doing your 'work' of reloading a coupe hundred rounds and then have a little fun by building 25 of a new load or two. It takes the monotony out of reloading for me.

 

[Black Snowman]

I agree with my fellow Smith that experimentation is where reloading gets fun and less economical

I personally like "clean" burning powders with low flash for my accuracy loads and lots of flash for my hot loads

In 38 special I use Universal since it's low flash and clean burning plus I already have it on hand for my .40 S&W loads. I've tried several other powders but I always seem to come back to Universal for my target loads. I'm still trying new things though and I've heard good things about Hodgdon's "Tite" series of powders.

My favorite magnum pistol powder is Hodgdon's H-110 for it's clean burning and massive crowd pleasing fireballs. This powder is only suitable for full power loads in the .357 due to requiring a certain level of pressure and flame for reliable iginion and requires a magnum primer. I also reload with it in .44 Mag and .50 AE which are a little more forgiving about reliable ignition due to their larger charges. I still recommend observing the warnings about too light of loads in the manuals.

Burnt H-110 also leaves a distinctive but not unpleasent scent

 

[g56]

One thing that wasn't mentioned was that slower powders are normally better for warmer loads, if you look in your Speer book you will notice that H-110 yields substantially higher velocities in .357 than Universal, but H-110 isn't as good for midrange loads. Universal is a pretty good choice for low to midrange loadings.

Another thing you need to watch is to pay close attention to the OAL of the cartridge, seating your bullets too deep can cause problems, as an example my Speer #12 lists the OAL for the 158 gr JHP in .357 as 1.570", you want to make sure your loaded length isn't any less than that.

A good rule of thumb is to only use magnum primers when the loading information calls for them, if it doesn't say...use standard primers.

 

[BigRedBowtie]

I found it a bit difficult to find non-magnum primers today. I wanted CCI, as that is what the loads in Speer's book are cooked with, but it seems that Gander mountain, while having boatloads of small pistol magnum to sell me, was plum out of the ones I wanted. I was able to find some federal small pistol, non-magnums that I brought home with me.

So, if the H.U.C burns so completely, is it considered a "clean" powder? I have some American Eagle factory loads for my .45, (the aforementioned "NT" cases) and they burn so clean that the inside of the brass is almost as clean as the outside. Now, THAT'S the kind of condition I want my weapon in when it's cleaning time!! WHat makes a clean powder clean? Might a given powder charge burn cleaner in one barrel length but not another?

 

[BluesBear]

A lot of the dirt left in a fired case is what we used to call "primer smut" and it's darkened somewhat by the burning powder.

The new PMC primers leave the cases suprisingly clean compared to what we are used to.