Priming issue with the Lee Loadmaster

[UltimateReloader]

Hi all- I'm making progress getting my Loadmaster setup, but am running into an issue seating primers. The priming depth is not super consistant (but acceptable, not a whole lot of variation).

More concerning is an intermittent issue where the edge of the primer looks a bit smashed.

See the picture here:


I'm loading large pistol primers (Winchester WLP), 45ACP here.

Any ideas?

 

[helg]

Primer is not perfectly lined up with primer pocket. This can be caused by couple of reasons.

1. Dirt in priming system.
2. Incomplete indexing due to wear of plastic cap on the indexer rod - turn it to adjust.
3. Case retainer in station2 is not holding shell tight.

 

[NuJudge]

There are a bunch of unofficial videos on line that may prove very helpful:
http://loadmastervideos.com/

They also have an unofficial manual that is much more helpful:
http://forums.loadmastervideos.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=115

 

[243winxb]

Load Master primer seating adjustment

The best way to adjust the primer seating depth is as follows; First make sure that the press is stopping on the stop built into the handle, not on one of the dies. You should adjust the sizing die so that it touches the shell plate when the ram is at the top of its stroke. Maintain a slight downward pressure on the lever while turning the sizing die into the turret, to prevent the die from lowering the carrier as you screw it in.

Next, place a fired case with the spent primer still in it in the primer seating station. Loosen the locknut on the primer seating depth adjuster, and turn the adjuster up until you run out of threads. Now raise the ram to the top of its stroke with the fired case in station #2. Holding the ram up with one hand, turn the primer seating depth adjuster down until you feel resistance. This will be when the primer seating pin contacts the spent primer in the case previously inserted into station #2. Lower the ram, and turn the primer seating depth adjuster down 1/6 - 1/3 more (one to two flats on the bolt head), and lock in position with the lock nut. Load Master Priming Problem

Primer problems on the Load-Master is usually caused by the primer pin sticking up a small amount. To fix this problem you must determine what is causing the pin to not completely retract.

To solve these issues, start by removing the primer trough, looking into the carrier you will find a hexagon hole, on one of the corners of the hex there is a shelf to prevent the primer pin from dropping down too far. This shelf can become fouled with dirt, gunpowder, or case cleaning media. Clean this shelf of any foreign material.

Now carefully inspect the primer pin for any nicks or burrs. A small nick on the large diameter of the pin will cause it to stick up and cause primer tipping. Lubricate the large diameter of the primer pin with a very light film of oil and return it to the primer feed well. Be sure the small spring is installed and intact.

Remove the trough cover and carefully inspect the hole where the primer passes through. Remove any burrs on this hole with a sharp razor knife. Feel free to enlarge the hole to remove any burr. The hole does not provide guidance for the primer, but any burr will cause a potential tipped primer. Carefully inspect the primer slider for any nicks, burrs or flash and be certain you have the correct slider for the primer size (small or large).

Reinstall the trough cover and apply a very small drop of oil to the black primer lever pivot. Now reinstall the primer trough. Cycle the primer rocker and be sure the primer pin retracts completely.

Now is a good time to check the primer seating depth bolt for proper adjustment. Remove the turret and run the press to the top of the stroke. Push down on the primer rocker arm. If you are unable to push the rocker arm down a small amount you likely have the primer depth bolt set down too far. Many times, this is the result of incorrectly set dies at some point. If a sizing die is set further than to just touch the shell holder, the carrier cannot go all the way to the top. This can make the user believe that the primer seating depth is now incorrect and not deep enough. When the deeper adjustment is made to the primer depth, the priming pin rises prematurely. This causes the primer slider to have to push the primer up and on the pin instead of simply sliding it on. This setting results in tipped primers and destroyed primer sliders. More damage can occur when the carrier can once again go to the top because the offending die has been readjusted or a different and properly adjusted die set installed. The deeper primer adjustment is now putting far too much pressure on the primer rocker arm and a destroyed carrier will result.

One last helpful change is to place your sizing die in position 2 with its decapper removed. Put a decapping die in position one. This will align case perfectly to accept the primer.
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi

 

[jfh]

helg got it, I think.

Check the case retainers--and look for grunge on the anvil.

Jim H.

 

[fourdollarbill]

I noticed mine would mess up a primer if the powder through expander die really held tight to a shell and it made a heavy jarring action when it released. This made the primer jump and turn sideways. The primer would semi straighten up on the way up to the case and when it got to the case it naturally tried to align itself while the seater was pushing it causing that scrub you see on one side of the primer.
I removed the expander bushing and polished it with polish compound and a cloth wheel until semi smooth. I never had a primer damaged again.
Also as maintenance before a major clean I stick a q-tip down the primer hole and spin it with my fingers and use the primer pin lever to push the q-tip out.

 

[UltimateReloader]

Thanks all, I'm already running a decapper in station 1, and a sizing die with decapper removed in station 2. I think I need to perform the validation steps, and make sure my sizing die is not screwed in too far.

 

[jfh]

That's right--I'd forgotten you had the five-die setup. Nonetheless, check the #2 station case retainer: if it is not properly placing the case, you can get some case squirming as the sizer starts working on the case.

Follow out 243winxb's troubleshooting. Right now, I would look for grunge around the anvil, and clean the seater linking well.

Jim H.

 

[UltimateReloader]

OK guys, checked all of the above things, and I'm still seeing this intermittently. I have this press bolted to a steel pedestal which is bolted to the floor- so jerking/vibration should *not* be an issue.

Since I'm using a sizing die in station 2, there should be no "shellplate to die" misalignment, but what about the subplate to shellplate alignment? How do you adjust that on the Loadmaster?

 

[jfh]

Precisely, just what are you intermittently seeing? Is it the "smearing?" or is it the primer indentation (and presumably, grunge in the indentation)?

And, note my comment about case "squirming," even with the sizer in station 2.

Is the turret installed / tightened down properly? (that's a WAG--not likely the problem)

If I understand your query about the subplate--there really is not a subplate; there can be misalignment of the shell plate carrier--but that is highly unlikely on a new machine.

For these issues, see the Lee Load-Master videos on index checking and carrier alignment--I think; that's the way I understand your question.

Jim H.

 

[UltimateReloader]

JFH: It's smearing as seen in the picture above (same issue still occurs). From what I can gather, it appears that the primer starts to be seated crooked, and is forced into alignment by the primer pocket. That's my best guess...

I checked everything, no grunge on the primer punch, nothing on the shelf below the primer punch assembly. The turret is installed properly and I did check that the turret retention knob is tight.

Thanks for the info all- keep it coming

 

[jfh]

With that in mind, I'll bet the issue is whether or not you have the correct combination / assembly of the primer setup. IOW, it looks to me like you may have a large primer feed arm (the plastic trough and cover) and a small primer slider installed--or a small primer anvil, not the larger one--or some combination of these different items.

I recently had a problem similar to this, IIRC--and I discovered that I had put a large trough cover on a small primer arm, or something like that.

Also check to see if any of the plastic pieces, but most notably the trough assembly or the cover have burrs or have been damaged. If there is no damage, then double check your primer slider 'hook'--and if you even just think it might be damaged, replace it.

See the parts list page at Lee for reference for the proper parts--but you can also think it through.

added on edit: corrected nomenclature for primer slider; Lee # LM3252.

Jim H.

 

[UltimateReloader]

Thanks. I checked for use of proper parts. I think the next step in the troubleshooting process will be two things:
1. Double check that primer punch is lowered properly (I don't think this is the issue)
2. Take off turret, watch primer slider arm actuate, look for jerkiness, deburr any rough spots on slider, arm, check for interference between rotating arm and case retainer, etc. I've heard these issues can cause tipped primers

It's got to be alignment, or jerkiness of the slider/arm at this point (I think...)

Thanks.

 

[jfh]

Although you don't mention whether or not you have dumped powder yet--or, IOW, have a grungy primer arm / anvil, spring, etc.--do clean those parts as well. If the arm / anvil hangs up, that can create timing problems on the primer insertion routine.

It can be solved, and I discovered that the primer assembly can operate totally reliably. Recently I loaded 1000 rounds of 38 Special. Once the LOA and seating / crimp were set up for continuous operation, I ran them out over the course of three-four sessions. Although I even had a couple of flipped primers, one sideways crushed one, and a few no-feeds when I missed on keeping the trough filled by gravity, I did have no damage to the primer assembly parts. with my early machine, that's an accomplishment. (side comment: I think they may have changed the casting even, but my machine has enough wear on the "vibrator" design of the casting and the trough cover that I cannot get fully reliable primer feeding unless I do a finger tap on the primer tray as well.)

If there's a flaw to the load-master, it rests in this part of the machine: a final revision to the primer feed operation needs to be done, IMO. And, this subsystem is why, I think, most of us who own the Load-Master mumble about steep learning curves.

Jim H.

 

[fourdollarbill]

The only way for that smear to happen is if the primer enters the primer pocket crooked and the seating pin forces it straight. As you mentioned the press is bolted down pretty well but any sharp snap action can flip a primer that weighs only a couple of grains.

(Take a primer and set it on a rock solid work bench made of 1" thick steel, tap the bench with a small hammer and that primer will jump and flip regardless of how heavy that work bench is).

My guess is the powder through expander die is holding on to the case pretty tight and when it pulls out it is a sharp snap that knocks the primer on its side. I have had it happen many many many times and after I polished the PTE bushing as described above in my previous post I never one time had a smeared primer again. Maybe give it a try?

 

[Marlinreloader]

UltimateReloader-

Try this site see if this will help at all. Lots of info and videos for the LEE Load Master.

http://manual.loadmastervideos.com/

Good luck

Marlinreloader

 

[Marlinreloader]

Oh,

Just saw the site is already mentioned. Missed it, sorry.

Marlinreloader

 

[UltimateReloader]

OK guys, I got my tipped primer issue worked out. I used my lathe to drill out a primer pocket all the way through (same diameter as primer pocket). This allowed me to look down the sizing die (with pin removed as you use it in this configuration) to see how the primer punch was aligned with the primer pocket. Sure enough, my suspicions were confirmed- the carrier was not properly aligned with the turret and corresponding sizing die. I was able to ajust the position of the carrier so that the primer punch aligns properly and that solved the tipped/smeared primer issue (at least for more than 1 box, which is a lot better than every 10 rounds). I think this part of the issue is solved...

But, I ran into a secondary issue. When I rotated the carrier, it prevents the primer trough from running up against the bumps on the frame which shake primers into the trough. So, my chute ran out of primers, and I had about 10 cases with no primers. Time to get out the bullet puller. Once I realized this, I shook the primer tray every few rounds to refill the chute.

I'd like to fix this issue without having to modify the press at all (since I'll be shooting videos, and want to avoid telling people to put tape and coat hanger wires on their press if I can avoid it).

Anyone had this issue? Any easy way to solve it?

Thanks,
Gavin

 

[jfh]

Your test rig was ingenious, Gavin.

really. I wished I had thought to do that. Based on what you found here, I don't think I would fix it, at least for your videos--I would simply call it out as a trouble-prone part of the machine, and demonstrate why it is. Here's the history of this particular issue, at least for me--i.e., reliable primer feed, insertion, and seating:

When I broke out the Load-Master again after a ten year hiatus from reloading, I remembered that when I had quit using it, I was about ready to throw it out the window--so I simply sent it in to Lee for a complete factory go-over. They did so, and returned it promptly--and I proceeded on to (re)learning how to set up dies, get the case feeder running smoothly, etc. This was about thirty months ago--and Shadowdog500 had begun posting his Load-Master videos on you-tube, so I made use of them for my setup.

At any rate, with a freshly-tweaked factory setup that had included carrier realignment, I had few problems with primer insertion unless I switched primer subsystems, or let the primers run low or dry. When low primers did happen, the inconsistent feeding resulted in near-inevitable slider damage. Subsequent trouble shooting showed that 1) the proper carrier / primer alignment resulted in the frame 'vibrator' sub-subsystem not working, even with 2) the 'pencil' pusher properly aligned and in place. I noted that the stub on the trough that was to hit the frame nub was worn, and I also thought the frame nubs over the years had also worn down.

Somewhere along the way when buying some accessories (probably additional trays), I had stumbled into the small wire clip that secures the tray lid to the trough. The increased tension and rigidity of the tray and trough when that clip was installed does help increase the vibration from the 'pencil' side pusher; it also ensures the trough stub misses the frame nub. So, I have learned to do a finger tap on the primer tray while religiously watching the primers feeding through the trough. This technique seems to solve about 99% of the primer feed issues, especially when combined with smoothing and cleaning techniques on the trough head and primer slider assembly. The finger-tap is second nature now, and it has enabled me to continue using the Load-Master with some confidence.

What your troubleshooting today shows is that Lee has 1) NOT changed the casting (extending the nubs) , 2) nor probably changed the trough cover stub (an easy change to do, IMO). An ultimate solution that starts with re-specifiying the primer subsytem measurements probably would include a steeper angle on the feeder trough; my eyeball says that was probably not possible, IIRC.

Because of the intereaction of all these various subsystems, watch for case ejector issues. Don't mis-identify the problem as carrier alignment issues; a separate workaround has been figured out for that. I'll save those comments for later.

Jim H.